Brendan Schaub walks through his career arc from a cup of coffee with the Buffalo Bills to the UFC, then from comedy open mics to a Showtime special and eventually founding the Thick Boy podcast network. He gets candid about the terror of fighting, the loneliness of running a business as the talent, and what he misses about the golden age of the Comedy Store Rat Pack.
Speakers: Sam Parr (host), Shaan Puri (host), Brendan Schaub (guest, UFC fighter / comedian / podcast network founder)
Introduction and Brendan’s Career Arc [00:00:00]
Sam: We’re live. Brendan Schaub, what’s going on? I’m Sam, this is Shaan. We just get right into things. Shaan and I have been huge fans of yours for a long time. We’re both huge UFC fans, we go to a bunch of those shows, been watching you — Fighter and the Kid — for a while. Then the show with Theo Von, that was awesome. So we’ve been fans forever. I think we each actually might have a Thick Boy shirt.
Brendan: I love it! I love the shirt, just the body, actually.
Sam: So I’m a real fan. I went all the way. Dixon — the heart, fellas — thinks in the heart. I don’t drink, otherwise I would have your whiskey. But you do lots of stuff. I’ll kind of give what I know about you: basically you’re from Colorado, played a little in the NFL — I don’t know if you actually made the cut entirely but you were very serious, for the Broncos — went into the UFC, did awesome, knocked out some great guys. Then you got into show business via podcast. You were originally just on Joe Rogan a bunch, eventually launched your own thing, and now you have Fighter and the Kid but also three or four other podcasts. How big is the empire? I know you have hundreds of thousands of subscribers and each video gets hundreds of thousands of views, but I actually don’t know how big it is.
Brendan: Sure. Going back to the football — I played at University of Colorado for the Buffs. They just got Deion Sanders so I’m excited about that. Then I had a cup of coffee with the Buffalo Bills. I got there and they’re like, “We’re all set on slow white guys,” so that broke my heart.
Then from there I was selling supplements door to door, Pursuit of Happiness style. Then I started training Jiu-Jitsu and boxing, and next thing you know I’m fighting grown men in a steel cage in my underwear. Two years after I started training I was in the UFC. I made it through The Ultimate Fighter — was a finalist there with Kimbo Slice, right? It was the biggest season, with Rashad Evans and Rampage Jackson.
Sam: Yeah, yeah.
Brendan: There’s a common theme in my life: I get put in the deep end. It goes zero to a hundred in every aspect of my life. Whether it’s comedy, football, fighting, podcasting — I get thrown in the deep end and I gotta figure it out. I was in the UFC, and probably two years in I’m ranked top ten in the world, and it was terrifying.
Then I moved to LA. I grew up in Venice Beach in the summers at my uncle’s house as a young boy — my dad would always bring me out here. So once I could make the move, I made the move. I started a podcast — this is damn near twelve years ago — called The Fighter and the Kid with Brian Callen, and that thing took off.
Fast forward to 2023: I own a podcast network. Thick Boy Network, where we have around seven shows. Between Fighter and the Kid, The Shop Show, Food Truck Diaries, Fight Companion, The Golden Hour — it’s going well. It’s a lot of work.
Sam: Your output is pretty insane. You said you get thrown in the deep end, and you’re right. Transitioning from football to UFC was a really short transition, and you’re doing it at the high level — you’re in the actual UFC. It takes most guys a long amateur journey, then a small promotion, then a bigger promotion. You fast-tracked that. And then in comedy you did the same thing: you went from “I’m a UFC fighter who’s funny” to a Showtime special really fast. There’s good and bad with that fast track. On one hand you learn fast. On the other hand you get your ass kicked because you’re pushing beyond where you were ready for, and you’re learning publicly.
Brendan: Yeah, correct. In hindsight, even when I was in the UFC learning comedy, I wish I had people around me who said slow down. When I’m fighting, you don’t really have that option. Once you’re in the UFC, it’s the big league. They call you with Mirko Cro Cop or Matt Mitrione or it’s Brock Lesnar — you gotta take the fight. You don’t have control. I could have been smarter about decisions when I was young.
I was a lot more athletic than a lot of those heavyweights, that’s why I excelled so fast. But that’s a blessing and a curse, because if you get to a level where you’re fighting vets with forty or fifty fights, they’ve seen an athletic dude with a good right hand and good wrestling. Eventually the cheat code catches up to you. Nothing replaces experience.
But the blessing was I was able to transition, get out, build a fan base, and go into something I always wanted to do — stand-up comedy.
Getting Into Comedy [00:06:00]
Brendan: When I started comedy I had some great mentors. Joe Rogan’s like a brother. Brian Callen. I had this plethora of amazing comics around me. I’d go to dinner with them, do the podcasts, make them laugh, and they all encouraged me to do stand-up. Everyone told me it’d be ten years before I find my voice. I’m like, I’m never scared of hard work, let’s do it.
The issue is I get catapulted. Instead of doing open mics, one of the first things I did was the Vic Theater in Chicago. How did you even start though? Because it’s a big jump from “this dude’s funny when we hang out, cracks jokes” to you’re on stage and you’ve got to do a set.
Sam: Right — me and Shaan try to be funny in our little pond. It’s like you don’t know how to be that funny. We’re a dwarf among midgets.
Brendan: Everyone has that funny uncle at the party, right? And there’s a big difference between your family going “you’re really funny, you should try stand-up” and Bert Kreischer, Joe Rogan, Joey Diaz, Brian Callen, and Theo Von going, “Dude, you need to do stand-up.”
What did I do to develop that first set? It’s sink or swim. I had my ten thousand reps on podcasts with comedians, keeping up with them, making them laugh — being killed really quick at it. And then the perfect situation to get started was Fighter and the Kid getting popular. We did live Fighter and the Kids, but Brian’s been in comedy for thirty years. I told Brian, “You ever been to a live podcast? They suck.” He said, “No man, I’ve been in show business thirty years, we’re going to do a performance.” So we came up with an idea to make it a show.
Brian knew I wouldn’t do stand-up but didn’t want to scare me. For our first live show, he kept up the theme — he was always late to the podcast, and I’m very professional, I’m never late. So for the first live show he goes, “All right — we’re going to pretend I’m late, you start the show by yourself. Tell a story for ten minutes, I’ll come in, you get upset, we do the whole act.” I’m like, cool, I can handle that.
So I’d just tell stories. That carried on for four or five shows. Then we’re in Portland or Seattle at a sold-out theater. I’m backstage, pretty nervous. I told Brian, “I don’t know what story I’m going to tell.” And he’s looking around frantic, and he goes, “What do you mean you don’t know what story you’re going to tell? You’re doing stand-up, dumbass.”
I was like, oh. And it just clicked — storytelling, that’s what I’m doing. So shortly after that I realized: this is stand-up, it’s just my way of doing it.
Brendan: We did a live Fighter and the Kid at The Comedy Store — the world famous Comedy Store, the mecca, like Madison Square Garden for basketball. That goes great. Six days later I get a call from Emily at the Comedy Store. She goes, “Hey Brendan, great show the other day. We’re seeing if you’d like to do a set in the Belly Room — give you six minutes.” I said, “Let me call Brian and see if he’s available.” She goes, “No — just you. You had a great set the other night.” So I was like, say less.
That was 2014, early 2015. And then you get that bug and it’s off to the races.
The Showtime Special and the Haters [00:13:00]
Brendan: Back to the point of getting thrown in the deep end — I’m doing a special on Showtime two years in. In my eyes at the time, I’m proud of that special. I challenge any comedian — two years, a network special, sixty minutes. Now, is it as good as a Bill Burr special? No. But in my head I thought people would see it and go, “Oh my God, for only doing it two years, look at this guy. Imagine where he’ll be in four years, five years, ten years.” A lot of people don’t have that insight. They don’t give a damn about that context.
I’m young, and I always see the best in people. I don’t pay attention to hate. I gravitate towards positivity. I was like, for the most part people will say, “This guy’s been doing it two years — this is good for him.” No, man. When you do that, it actually pushes you further away from them. I thought it would bring me closer to being legit, to being like my peers. No — it pushes you further away, because a lot of those famous comedians I mentioned, it took them fifteen or twenty years to get a network special. It rubs people the wrong way. I didn’t see that coming. I gotta be honest, I don’t think anybody did.
It is what it is. You do that and you move on. You keep grinding, go to the next one, the next one. I learned on the fly. I also learned the hard way — that’s the only way I make changes. I wouldn’t change anything. Things are pretty good.
Running the Thick Boy Network [00:17:00]
Sam: Are you the CEO of the network now? You’re having to be the talent and run the business?
Brendan: Heavy lies the crown, man. I grew up in a business-minded family. My dad’s an entrepreneur. I have a double major from University of Colorado in sociology and business. I’ve always gravitated toward business.
I worked for Showtime for six years, built the entire podcast branch, which is crushing it now. At the end of six years — this was December 2022 — six months prior they offered me another six-year contract. I’m looking around and Showtime was great to me. I was getting a salary, they were reaping the benefits — it was good for both sides. But I thought, I feel like I could do this on my own. I’m an entrepreneur. I see what they built. I’ve helped them out, they’ve helped me out. I feel like I can invest in myself and do this on my own.
So I turned down the contract, decided to start Thick Boy Studios. I owned all the IPs to all the shows I started with them, so I brought those over. And in hindsight I didn’t really know who to talk to — nobody in my lane has really done this, leaving a major network in podcasting and bringing it over on your own. It’s a different animal when you’re not only the talent but you’re also running everything.
Sam: Did you raise money for that or did you self-fund it?
Brendan: Self-funded it. From all the other shows and stand-up, I just put all my money in. And whenever I start something new I’m like, you know — people say “congrats” and I say, “Ask me in a year.” We’ll find out if this is a bad idea, an all right idea, or an amazing idea. I go into things relatively blind. I don’t do a ton of research. But I have confidence I’ll figure things out.
Sam: A year in now — bad idea, good idea, or amazing?
Brendan: I think it’s still too early to tell. Medium? Financially, am I making more money? Yes. But that can’t be the main focus because my life is more complicated. I have less free time. What’s that worth?
At Showtime I was the talent. I’d come up with ideas, they’d execute it. I’d sit down, knock it out, get paid, move on. Now it’s different. One of my biggest faults is that I’m a control freak — so I need help, and I’m getting there. You want somebody to care as much about your business as you do, and that’s nearly impossible to find.
And when you’re at Showtime, you started with zero subscribers and six years later you’re at 600,000. When you leave, that Showtime page stays with them — you start from dead zero again. I think we’re at 160, 170,000 now a year in, which isn’t bad. You just keep chipping away.
Podcast Metrics: Audio vs. YouTube [00:22:00]
Sam: What’s the size of your biggest show? And what metrics do you use? For us, downloads means Spotify, YouTube, iTunes, all of that.
Brendan: So Fighter and the Kid and The Golden Hour — which is formerly King of the Sting with Theo Von — those weren’t part of Showtime at all, they’re just under my banner. Showtime was Below the Belt, which is now The Shop Show, Food Truck Diaries, and some others.
There’s outlying factors. Fighter and the Kid has been as high as 600,000 per episode, as low as 100,000. And with the change from King of the Sting to a new show with Chris D’Elia and Eric Griffin — those 500,000 subscribers were there for Theo and Brendan, so when you swap in a completely different dynamic, you’re re-introducing the show. That one’s probably around 150,000 to 200,000 on YouTube.
But here’s my thing: a lot of people in podcasting in 2023 look at YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. For the most part, people listen to podcasts on their way to work. The audio is king. My main metric is always audio. We’ll have guests on and they look at the YouTube numbers and they’re like, “Are you guys big?” And our YouTube might get 20,000 to 200,000 per episode. But our audio is consistently 100,000 to 200,000, and that’s crushing it. That’s as true a subscription as you can get.
Sam: Yeah, we’re similar. Our YouTube gets like 30,000 to 200,000 but the audio is consistently there.
Brendan: With this new generation of podcasters — the Logan Pauls, the Andrew Schultzes — their numbers are massive on YouTube. I’d be curious what Logan Paul’s audio is. Because audio is the canyon in podcasting. If audio’s solid, there’s no red flags.
Business Goals and the North Star Question [00:26:00]
Sam: What’s your ambition level? Are you thinking we can get to ten million in revenue, or I want to exit for a hundred million? Where’s your two, three, five-year goal?
Brendan: Rob Dyrdek’s a good buddy, and he—
Sam: We’ve had him on! He killed it.
Brendan: Yeah, I’ve known Rob for years. He’s a savant when it comes to business. He came into Thick Boy Studios in Calabasas maybe two or three months in and he kept asking, “What’s your goal, what’s your goal?” And finally I’m like, “Chill, dude. Let me get to cruising altitude and get to Wi-Fi before I start figuring out goals. This thing just took off — once I get to cruising altitude, I’ll let you know.”
So we’re kind of getting to cruising altitude now. I don’t know what the goal is. I think once I get the network where I think it could be, I’d start looking at other options. But I’ve never done anything for money. I do it because I love it and it’s fun. If it makes money, fantastic. If it doesn’t, I still want to do it. So hopefully in three or five years I’m talking to you guys and we’re celebrating some big moment — but I couldn’t tell you what that looks like. Is that a problem?
Shaan: I don’t think you’ve got to have an end goal in the way people push for, like a five-year plan. You’re taught that at eighteen years old — “what are you going to major in?” You don’t know anything yet. It’s great when you have it, but the reality is most people don’t have it right off the jump and that’s totally normal. You just get in motion, get momentum. As you start going you’ll start navigating. You get a better vantage point — you’re higher up, you can see more.
What does help is a vision for your life. Not a revenue target, but a vision. Like — when I started this podcast, I was walking around with a friend right after we’d signed the paperwork to sell my first company. He asked what I wanted to do next. In Silicon Valley there’s only one acceptable answer: “I’m gonna start another company, bigger and badder.” But I gave him the honest answer. I said, “You know what Tim Ferriss does? It seems like that dude gets to wake up, be curious about stuff, run experiments, and then share the coolest stuff he learns with a million smart people.” I said, “I want to be in a million people’s earballs.” That’s a vision for an awesome life, even if it’s not a number.
Shaan: I remember Justin Kahn — one of the guys who started Twitch. I was talking to him backstage a couple years after the sale, and he said, “Ten billion. I want to go after ten billion.” It didn’t work out. He wrote a blog post later saying he was motivated by rage, by a chip on his shoulder — and it didn’t come from the right place.
Something I say is ABZ: step A, step B, and then step Z is maybe one day this becomes a billion-dollar company. But focus on getting to a million in revenue first. The Z is a fun North Star for decision-making. It’s motivational. It takes pressure off where you know A and B.
Brendan: You know, that entrepreneur spirit — I’m always thinking what’s next, what are we going to do next. In my sports career and even in comedy I’ve never just stopped and smelled the roses. I’m constantly pushing. I don’t know if that leads to a happier life. Sometimes you need a check. If nothing changes, your life’s pretty great right here.
I wish I was more like that. I don’t know what else I’d need. If I didn’t have to fly commercial, that’d be great. But outside of that, things are going well.
Sam: I see the nice 911s, you got the Ferraris, you got the toys. If you’d told ten-year-old Brendan some of this stuff he’d be like, “This is insane, good for you, you made it.” But we always say on the pod: people ask what advice would you give your twenty-one-year-old self, and we ask the opposite — what would your fifteen-year-old self say to you if it could look at your life now?
Brendan: It’d be like, “Dude, you get to do this every day? You better be smiling, bro.” That’s almost a good reminder. I always say dogs and kids have got it figured out — all day is play, everything is good, they’re happy and grateful. We get things screwed up as we get older.
Do you guys have kids?
Sam: I’ve got two — a seven and a three-year-old.
Brendan: I have a seven and a three-year-old too. I don’t think I’ve ever been as happy as my two boys were yesterday when I bought them bearded dragons. If I could just get to that level of happiness one more time, my life would be complete.
Success vs. Fulfillment [00:34:00]
Shaan: Tony Robbins has this thing — I don’t know if you’ve been to one of his events—
Brendan: No, and usually people think, “Oh, Tony Robbins, I don’t need motivation” or “It’s like a cult thing.” But I went to a bunch and found it really useful. It’s a good operating philosophy for life.
Shaan: One of the things he says is there’s the science of success and the art of fulfillment, and they’re unrelated. Whether it’s football, fighting, comedy, podcasting, the business side — the science of success is figuring out a target, working hard, making progress. But the art of fulfillment is separate. If you want the complete life, you have to figure out just like I learned the skills of how to be successful, I have to learn the skills of how to be fulfilled. The magic happens when you integrate the two — create new projects and try to be successful while being fulfilled.
Most people chase success from a place of trying to prove themselves, insecurity. That’s a great fuel, but it might not make you happy.
Brendan: Yeah. I think I do a decent job of stopping and smelling the roses a little bit. My kids helped me get there. And the mistake people make, whether it’s business or entertainment — especially with social media — is you can always compare yourself to somebody doing better. If you’re constantly chasing that and comparing yourself to others, that’s where happiness never comes. I try not to compare myself to the others, especially because my journey is so different from those I look up to. Whatever my journey looks like, I just have to accept that.
The Kool-Aid Point and Critics [00:39:00]
Shaan: I was reading something yesterday that reminded me of you. It was about the Kool-Aid Point. The idea is there’s a graph — as you do stuff and people start to like your work or become a fan, it grows steady, steady, steady. Then there’s this point called the Kool-Aid Point where it takes off. And then you’re going to have two groups: a bunch of people who love you and a few people who hate you. How you’ll know you’re there is when people accuse your fans of just drinking the Kool-Aid — “they love everything you do, they’re Kool-Aid drinkers.” And on the other side you’ll have people who want to tear you down.
I was thinking about it because you’ve lived that. You have a big fan base and a big anti-fan base — there’s a subreddit I go to. It’s weird, I like you, but I also find it funny. They’re clever, they’re not-so-funny but also funny at the same time. Me and Sam get maybe one one-hundredth of the passion and hate that you have. When I read our YouTube comments and see something like that it stings in the moment, but there’s also a lot of times where I’m like they’re not wrong. I can see some truth in what they’re saying. For you — do you ever look at the subreddit and think, “They’re being a dick but they’re not entirely off”?
Brendan: In all honesty I don’t pay attention to it. I think it’s a bad thing whether you pay attention to the negativity or the positivity. You just gotta keep doing your thing. My heroes growing up didn’t live in this world. It can’t be healthy. I think we’ll find over years how it affects the brain — how it affects creatives and businessmen who do read the comments. I don’t want to be that sample size. I already have enough CTE. I’m not going to get digital CTE from comments every day.
With the Reddit group, yeah — it’s interesting. They watch everything you do. There are some things I’m on board with. But there’s a small select group who are just evil. There’s a difference between hate and evil. I do a lot of content, I make a lot of jokes, I roast a lot of people — I get that you’re going to have haters. You just don’t get to a certain level without them. Look at Logan Paul, Drake, LeBron James, Joe Rogan — nobody gets more hate than that guy, and he gets more love too.
I’m in the business of likability. If you watch my podcast, buy a ticket to my stand-up, buy the merch, buy the whiskey — you’re a fan. I make a living off likability, so I just don’t give the hate energy. Some of them are really funny and I appreciate those guys. But it gets dicey when they cross into my personal life. I’m not Tom Cruise. Why do you care about that stuff?
Thank God my wife has been with me since I was in the UFC. When you’re fighting in the UFC you get a lot of love and a lot of hate — there’s no in-between. She’s conditioned to it, she doesn’t pay attention. But the only time I don’t like it is when they make it super personal — about the kids, certain things.
Nobody’s harder on me than myself. There’s nothing they can say that I don’t tell myself on a daily basis, and trust me, it’s way worse than what they’re putting out.
Brendan: I post and ghost. I don’t pay attention to that stuff. And I’m on the road thirty weekends a year — I get done with this interview, go get coffee, I can’t go down the street without, “Hey Brendan, love you, man.” That’s real. That’s what I care about.
If you’re walking down the street and one in ten people on social media — especially Twitter — is who you assign your self-worth to, you’re going to live a miserable life. That Reddit group is going to do their thing. I was built for this. God gave me big shoulders for a reason.
Brendan: You look at me and I probably look like the guy who bullied you in high school. They want to needle me with that — “Brendan’s a bully” or whatever. But if they actually knew me, you know? These people have never met me. They’re not buying tickets to the show. If I gave that energy my business wouldn’t exist and I wouldn’t have this house I’m talking to you from.
The lines get blurred where it’s like, “He’s a big strong guy, he can handle it, everything’s on the table.” It actually hurts my feelings, man. It’s actually not cool. If it’s funny and witty, fire away — I’m a professional comic, we roast each other. But when you go towards the personal side, you’ve crossed a boundary. And if you want to have this conversation in person, we can do that. But in fourteen years of entertainment, nobody’s ever said it to my face.
The Comedy Store Rat Pack Era [00:48:00]
Sam: You moved to LA and you had this crew. Shaan and I both lived in San Francisco when we started our companies. Having a crew where you succeed together is the greatest thing — it’s fun, it’s practical, you piggyback off each other, you motivate one another, you invest in each other. You had Bobby Lee, Theo Von, Chris D’Elia, Andrew Santino, Andrew Schultz kind of in and out, Joe Rogan. What was that like behind the scenes? Are you guys sharing tactics — like, “Here’s how we’re building the studio, here’s what we’re paying for it”?
Brendan: Going back to kind of the team — it all starts from Joe Rogan. He doesn’t give a damn about any of that, he just does whatever he wants and it sometimes works. He’s the leader of the pack. But he’s also the reason why we embraced each other. Five, six, seven years ago at the Comedy Store was the Comedy Rat Pack. We were the guys, every show sold out, our names on the marquee. And Rogan had put a structure in place — we don’t tear each other down, we support each other.
Isaiah Thomas said something that really resonated with me. He was on All the Smoke with Matt Barnes, talking about Michael Jordan. And Isaiah said: as alumni of the NBA, we’re this tight fraternity. We’ve reached certain levels. And he said, it is our duty to support each other. It is your responsibility — being in this small club — to come on other people’s shows, broaden the audience, bring people in. That is what has to happen.
And back seven, eight, even ten years ago when Fighter and the Kid first started — we’d have all these guys on. Tim Dillon, Andrew Schultz, Santino, Theo Von, D’Elia. Look at all the people that came on Fighter and the Kid and then just exploded. Now, is it because the Fighter and the Kid audience helped a little? Maybe. But it’s because those guys are so goddamn talented. Once people saw who they were, they outpaced Fighter and the Kid. They’ve blown the roof off things. And I take so much pride and joy in that — having those guys on before they were massive.
Brendan: Then the pandemic hit. The leader of the Rat Pack leaves — Joe Rogan leaves LA. The Comedy Store shuts down. Then Crystal leaves, Joey Diaz leaves, Tim Dillon leaves, Theo Von leaves. Brian goes through some stuff and has to leave. D’Elia goes through some stuff and has to leave. And I’m on this island by myself going, “Where is everybody?”
I tried to rally the troops, but those days were over, man. The days of being in the hallways at the Comedy Store, The Improv, the Icehouse, Laugh Factory — “Hey, podcast tomorrow?” “Yeah, definitely.” — gone. Everyone’s made it. Everyone’s in their own game now. You gotta figure it out on your own.
Brendan: I was at the Comedy Store last night. I always sit in the parking lot for a while because it reminds me of when I’d pull up and Rogan would pull up in his Porsche. We’d park next to each other, talk shop about cars, what’s next. Then Santino would pull up, then Brian, then Bobby Lee, then Theo. We’d all be in there, going to the show — it was like going to college. It was the absolute best.
I wish that somebody five or six or seven years ago would have tapped us on the shoulder like, “Hey fellas, in two years this is all gone.” I didn’t realize at the moment that that was the Golden Age.
In my theater, where my fish tank is — my man cave — I’ve got four pictures from those days. I just put them up. When they were taken five or six years ago, I didn’t realize that in that frozen moment, that was the best time ever for me. Being in that symbiotic team — it was such a team, man.
Now we all still talk, we have group chats, but seeing each other all the time? Those days are over. And it’s heartbreaking.
Shaan: It’s important to have a pay-it-forward culture. Silicon Valley has that too — there’s not really that much gatekeeping. You can go to the most successful, richest guy and he’ll give you time, give you advice, money, an intro. No payback required, it’s all paid forward because he got helped by the person before him.
I remember being in San Francisco on the come-up. Me and Sam met doing one of these founder masterminds where we’d get dinner for hours — “What are you doing, how’s that going, what am I doing, how’s that going, how can we help each other?” It felt like in Toy Story when they go to the arcade and those little aliens are in the claw machine and the claw picks one and takes it away. The other aliens weren’t pulling it down — they were cheering, “He made it, go for it.” That’s what it’s like in Silicon Valley. You’ll know someone who’s broke for four years and then they’re worth 150 million dollars overnight, and you’re like, “The claw picked you and you won.”
Sam: In San Francisco now though — pay it forward, yeah, but you gotta worry about getting stabbed.
Brendan: Forget starting a startup, watch your back literally. Just survive the day, man. Reina Ford is carrying a gun.
Fear Before UFC Fights [00:57:00]
Sam: I was going to ask — I saw a few interviews where Donald Cowboy Cerrone, Chael Sonnen, and Michael Bisping all talked about the locker room before a fight. People think fighters are these tough warriors who can’t wait to get out there. But Bisping said it was the worst thing ever, Cowboy said he throws up before every fight, he’s so afraid. And you had this thing where you knocked out Mirko Cro Cop and backstage he had ice on his head and you were like, “What the hell am I doing? I don’t want to be doing this when I’m forty.” What is it like backstage, that fifteen to thirty minutes before you go fight to the death in your underwear in front of a million people?
Brendan: I might have been one of the first fighters to ever say this out loud. A lot of guys want to give off the persona — “Oh, we’re warriors, it’s like Gladiator, we can’t wait to get out there.” But I’m telling you, I won’t mention names, I’ve seen dudes cry backstage. They don’t want to go out there. I’ve seen their coaches slap them — “You have to go out there.” I just don’t think it’s natural. I think it’s a level of intelligence from your body and mind going, “Hey, you’re about to get hurt — do not go out there.”
So the anxiety is through the roof. And every fight I was like, “What am I doing?” And I knew it was time to get out when I hit the cage and thought, “Don’t get hurt. Get out of here. You’ve got so much more to do in this life. You cannot suffer a concussion. Figure this out.”
The highs are the highest in the world — the peaks are the best. But the valleys are the lowest there can be in professional sports, maybe in life. It’s a tough gig. And I think the more fighters talk about being human and being scared, the more people can relate.
Think about it like this: after this podcast you go to the coffee shop and some guy goes, “Tomorrow at 1pm you and I are fighting.” Imagine the anxiety you’d have that night, that morning walking into that coffee shop. Now multiply that times a thousand — not only do you know exactly when you’re getting into a fight, but the guy happens to be top ten in the world, and everyone’s going to see it. It’s human nature to be like, “This is not healthy.”
Sam: We’ve seen some of our friends become worth hundreds of millions, even a billion dollars, and they’ll say, “I have to fire this person and I’m so afraid to do it — I haven’t done it in eight months.” And it normalizes fear. I always wanted to hear a Conor or a Khabib say, “I’m about to piss my pants,” because whenever I hear that from a tough guy I think — if this person is afraid, which I know they are even if they don’t say it, then I can do anything.
Brendan: I think it makes them human. It would do so much more for athletes if, before the Super Bowl, someone said, “Man, I’m scared shitless. That defense was good, I’m terrified to throw interceptions.” More people would relate to it.
Are there guys who were just built different — who actually loved it?
Brendan: There’s guys where ignorance is bliss. I’d be two weeks out from a fight in camp and I’m like, “Man, the fight’s in two weeks.” And a training partner goes, “Right, exciting!” I’m like, no, man, this is terrible.
But there are certain guys. The Diaz brothers. Cain Velasquez. Justin Gaethje. They just thrive on the violence. They were born warriors. Not thinking about businesses, not thinking about fifteen years down the road — they were just meant to do this. God bless them.
Go look up Justin Gaethje’s post-fight speech after Michael Chandler on YouTube. He said, “I was born in the wrong era. I should have been a gladiator so I could kill this person in front of all of you, because that’s what I’m built to do.” And I heard that and I’m like — there are two different types of humans. I am one, and he is the other.
Brendan: I’ve known Justin Gaethje since college. I’d go up to University of Northern Colorado to wrestle to get ready for my UFC fights. He was always like that at a young age.
You know, I’m built like a warrior. You’d look at me and I guess that’s one reason I get treated a certain way — I look like a gladiator, big dude with tattoos and cauliflower ears. But push comes to shove, I’m the guy in the back going, “I don’t want to be in the front lines, man.” So I get the treatment of a warrior, but I’m really the guy in the back playing the trombone, holding the flag, making sure I look good.
Shaan: Shaan and I talked about this — Rose Namajunas, before a fight, you see her saying, “I’m the best, I’m the best, I’m the best.” It doesn’t matter if you like UFC or not, it makes you want to cry because you can see so much self-doubt underneath it. She has to talk herself into it. And Joe goes, “I saw you saying you’re the best — what’s up with that?” And she goes, “Because I am the best.” She’s convincing herself.
Brendan: That’s because she probably worked with a mental coach, which I did too when I was fighting. Those high-level coaches tell you to fight the negative thought in your head with a positive one — say it out loud. That’s just her trying to keep the demons at the door. “I’m the best, I’m the best.”
Sam: What I love about this podcast is usually when people bring up fighting it’s a nightmare for me — they have no clue about the UFC. But you brought up Rose, you brought up Justin Gaethje, the Michael Chandler stuff. You actually know current UFC.
Brendan: Give me some shows and they’re like, “What’s your take on Chuck Liddell and Tank Abbott?”
Sam: They’ve got Alzheimer’s, man, they’re not having it anymore.
Brendan: “How is Conor McGregor doing?” Man. No, we’re super fans, that’s why it’s cool. We’ve had Michael Bisping, we’ve had Ariel Helwani on —
Brendan: You guys had a spat with Ariel.
Sam: Yeah, we had a little thing.
Handling Beef, the Reebok Deal, and No Animosity [01:05:00]
Brendan: You know, it’s a fan thing. I’ve had spats with people over the years. It’s gonna happen. I don’t entertain them. But I have no animosity toward Ariel. I’ll do interviews with him, whatever it is. On the fight campaign I said some things I shouldn’t have said, he was rightfully upset and did his thing. All good — I take accountability, that’s on me. He is the best journalist we have. I listen to his show. No issues.
With Dana — if anything I probably should be giving Dana ten percent. When he made the Reebok deal, at the time I was a young man and I took it personally. I thought it was a hit against me. It put a chip on my shoulder — an entire Pringles can, really.
Sam: What you’re talking about is before the deal, fighters could put any logo they wanted on their shorts. Dana made the deal with Reebok so it’s just the Reebok guys.
Brendan: Right. I lost probably a hundred thousand dollars a fight. I took it personal. But being a business owner now — Dana had to think about what’s great for all the elephants in the circus, not just me. I was a bystander and a casualty of that deal. But that pushed me faster into what I was supposed to be doing. Dana actually helped me out.
I have zero issues with Dana. I’m a huge fan. But some people can’t get over it — “He screwed you over, you had to retire, he did this.” I’m like, no. He did me a favor. That was twelve years ago, it’s all good. He’s doing great, worth more money than God, and I’m doing pretty good. If he called me today and said “Hey man, we need you to do something” — no doubt, I’d help out. No problem.
Wrapping Up [01:10:00]
Sam: Well, dude — you’re the man. I said earlier we had Rob Dyrdek on and I knew Rob growing up as a skater. He came on and just surprised us. His video has hundreds of thousands of views. You’re kind of in that category where I had good expectations because I listen to you a lot, but you’re a lot more insightful than I expected, and I thought you were pretty insightful. You’re just a good guest. Maybe next time you’ll have a better setup instead of just the iPhone.
Brendan: So here’s the thing — I don’t own a computer. My company, Thick Boy Network, has whatever twelve to fifteen computers. I’m kind of the anti-technology guy.
Shaan: That seems good for an internet company owner.
Brendan: I know, right? Can you tell I’m going to fail by next year?
Sam: We did the same thing with Mark Laurie who bought the Timberwolves. He’s a billionaire entrepreneur, and he came on doing the same thing — his iPhone on a chair on top of his dining table. We’re like, “Do you have a computer?” “I don’t own a computer.” And it hits different when a billionaire says it. When a regular person says it you’re like, “Man, what a schmuck.” When a billionaire says it you’re like, this guy knows how to live. He’s got people.
Brendan: Yeah, I know. Next time we do this I’ll do it at Thick Boy Studios — usually every Wednesday I’m in studio. But yesterday I did three podcasts in a row plus a two-hour meeting for a new project, started at 7:30am, got home around five, went and bought my kids lizards, fed them dinner, put them to bed, rushed to the Comedy Store, got home at 12:30am. Today is my first day off I don’t know how long, and tomorrow I’m on tour in Atlanta — Thursday, Friday, Saturday. So usually I’m in studio and I have the team set up so it looks professional. I owe you guys.
Sam: Also — I hate electric cars, I hate iPhones, I’m about to switch to a flip phone. We’ll add a couple zeros to your net worth and then we’ll call it cool. Until then you look like a tool.
Brendan: Yeah, until I get a few more zeros I’m just this broke guy doing a lot of iPhone stuff.
Sam: Well, dude, thank you for doing this. You’re amazing and we appreciate it.
Brendan: Thanks for having me. Apologies for the setup.
Sam: All right, that’s the episode.