Ariel Helwani, MMA journalist and host of The MMA Hour, walks Sam and Shaan through his journey from ESPN to building an independent media operation across Vox/The Ringer, Substack, BT Sport, and his own YouTube channel. He discusses why he left ESPN (a mix of creative friction, the UFC/Dana White feud, and a therapist helping him stop staying out of spite), how he thinks about the “puzzle” of independent work, and his philosophy on audience building — niche specialization, relentless consistency, and genuine relationship-building with guests. Sam pitches him on creator monetization ideas including virtual restaurants and online courses.
Speakers: Sam Parr (host, co-founder of The Hustle), Shaan Puri (host, investor), Ariel Helwani (guest, MMA journalist / independent media)
Cold Open — ESPN, Dana White, and Leaving Out of Spite [00:00:00]
Ariel: I knew he wanted me out. He wanted me out from before I even got there — like from the moment the news came out that I was signing, he was trying to get me to not even have day one at ESPN. So just being 100% honest, I’m a petty guy. There was a part of me that almost wanted to stay in spite of him.
Welcome and Introductions [00:00:30]
Sam: We’re live now. We always hit recording right now.
Ariel: Oh wow, geez. Hitting me with the blindsided live. I like it.
Sam: That’s how the real pros do it. I don’t know how you guys do it on TV, but the real pros just go live abruptly in midtown.
Ariel: I love it. I’m always ready.
Sam: So we got introduced through our buddy John, who’s apparently your closest buddy. I don’t know what you know about us — we can tell you about it in a minute — but basically we’re pretty popular in the business world. Let’s start with that. Pretty big deal.
Ariel: Anthony Pettis is a fan. I know that.
Sam: Yes. We’re not nearly as big a deal as you are in your world, but we’re on the cusp of being pretty big. We’ve talked to a bunch of amazing people — titans of industry, billionaires, people with tens of thousands of employees, people whose products you use. I have never been as starstruck or as nervous to talk to someone as I am right now. I swear to God, Ariel, I’ve been listening to you for maybe ten years. I’ve never been this nervous.
Ariel: Okay. For the audience at home, the only reason Sam is saying this right now is because I think you recorded this after the explanation of what happened the last time we were supposed to do this. A month ago, he stood me up. He was in some villa in Hawaii, I’m on the East Coast freezing my butt off, and he didn’t wake up in time. Now he’s trying to tell me he’s starstruck. Get out of here with this.
Sam: No, I kept — as the kids say, this is full cap right here. Sam doesn’t know cap. He doesn’t know this modern lingo.
Ariel: I’ve been dead honest. We’ve talked to a lot of wonderful, amazing people. I’ve never been this nervous because you don’t take a lot of crap. You call people out. The whole thing with Brendan Schaub is amazing. The whole Giovanni, the whole Thug Knows — I know about all of it. CEO PF, that’s amazing. Like every one of your guests takes their interview from the phone while driving. I’m shocked you’re not doing that.
Sam: I know — every time they go, “Alright, let’s join so-and-so, thank you for joining us,” and then they cut to the shot and they’re in a car. I’m like, for — really? You’re in the car?
Ariel: There’s something less intimate about the car. Maybe for other people it’s more intimate, but when you’re at home you’re comfortable, you’ve got your water bottle or coffee next to you — it just seems like you’re going to get better stuff.
All that aside, thank you for having me. A very good friend of mine — not named John Beer, named Kevin Wang of Montreal — give him a shout out, he currently lives in New York. When I think you sent out the initial tweet that I’d be on, he within seconds sent me the screengrab and said, “This is my favorite podcast. I can’t believe you’re going to be on it.” So a lot of people are apparently excited. I appreciate you guys having me. No hard feelings — it took me a couple days to get over being stood up. I had to rearrange my whole schedule and cancel on some people, but with great pleasure I return.
Sam: And we’re going to do an intro ahead of this so we don’t need to talk too much about your credentials. But basically — for the people who don’t follow you — you’ve been in the game since ‘06. You worked for Vox, you worked for ESPN, you worked for a ton of different amazing publications. You started as a reporter, but at this point I would say you’re just as much of a character of the MMA scene, the UFC scene, as Dana, as some of the fighters. You’re as much of the story sometimes as a lot of the stuff going on, which is awesome. You’ve built this amazingly large and loyal audience.
We’re a business podcast, so we can talk a little about MMA, but what’s interesting is that you’ve recently kind of gone semi-independent. You work with BT Sport, you work with Spotify, you have a Substack. What you’re doing as an entrepreneur in journalism and media is pretty amazing. And I think if you are a young person wanting to get into business journalism or media, what you’re doing — and also what some of the other guys are doing, Bisping, Chael Sonnen — is the perfect example of what you can become. That’s why we asked you to come on.
The Entrepreneurial Origin Story — Montreal to Syracuse to Spike TV [00:05:00]
Ariel: I appreciate that. I could tell you how I arrived to this point in my life, if you’d like.
I kind of feel like I’m an entrepreneur at heart, but I say that with the caveat that I’m a horrible business person. When I think about things like finances, stocks, investments — it truly makes my head hurt. My older brother Mark is someone who’s very good at this stuff. My dad is very good at this stuff. My brother works in the financial industry. I was always more of the sports fan, the creative, the dreamer.
However, I consider myself an entrepreneur in the sense that I have always tried to do things solo, on my own, bet on myself. When I went to Syracuse University as a youngster, I was the only one of my friends who left Montreal to go study in the United States. In Canada, in Montreal, no one leaves — they all just go to either McGill or Concordia. So I felt like I was kind of building my own thing.
When I got there, I went to the traditional route. Syracuse, in case you don’t know, is in my opinion the number one school for developing sports broadcasters — Bob Costas, Marv Albert, Mike Tirico, the list is incredible. They all go to this one station, WAER, to hone their craft. I went there, and I noticed that everyone kind of wanted to be the same person. I never wanted to follow anyone.
So I left that station after one semester and went to the rinky-dink third-tier student station in the student center and did my own combat sports show every Saturday morning. Again, just doing things on my own, trying to build out my own thing.
Fast-forward a long time. I get to Spike TV. I hate it after a week. I start my own website and that’s how I get into MMA journalism. I start interviewing fighters, I give myself six months to get noticed, I don’t get paid for any of it — I was just using this as an opportunity to show people what I can do.
Fast-forward to now. In February I started to realize my time at ESPN was probably coming to an end, and I started thinking: what do I want to do? What would make me happy? What’s the future here? And what I came to realize was I could almost create this menu, this puzzle, as I called it — where I’m doing this here, this here, that here. I call myself “Independent Helwani.” Yes, I’m working with other people, but I feel very independent because I was able to go out and carve up my duties. Some of it’s my own — my own YouTube channel, the Substack — and some of it is partnerships with other people.
It’s been an incredible few months since I was able to leave. I was terrified of leaving initially because ESPN was my dream. I actually had to talk to a therapist about that — because I didn’t feel like I felt like a failure if I left after three years. This was my dream. This was the mountaintop. But I was very unhappy, and I realized I had to go back to that entrepreneurial spirit and start building out my own things, doing what made me happy, being around people who support you and don’t want to stab you in the back.
So yeah, I’m very, very happy now. I’m working with Vox, my old friends at Vox Media, with The Ringer/Spotify, with Substack, with BT Sport. I did a thing for Showtime recently, Bet MGM. I’ve never been busier, but I’ve never been happier.
ESPN — Was the Dream What He Thought It Would Be? [00:11:00]
Sam: Talk about that move. You’re at ESPN, the dream is realized. This can happen with all kinds of entrepreneurs — you’ll sell your company and feel kind of numb or bored. Like, wait, was this it? This is the thing I was working for this whole time? So was it that the dream really wasn’t a dream? Or was it that it came to an end and you had to figure out where to go from here? What was the ESPN side like?
Ariel: That’s a great question. I always wanted to work at ESPN — that was the end goal. I remember being a young kid going on vacation to the United States with my family, getting to the hotel, and my brothers and I would watch SportsCenter on loop. In the mornings they’d have one episode they’d tape and just repeat it over and over, and I would just be so taken by the magic of sports television.
I’ll be honest: when I got there, right off the bat, I was disappointed. The first few months at ESPN were very hard for me because I had this vision in my mind of what it would be like — the resources, the commitment to excellent content, the attention to detail — and it honestly just wasn’t what I expected. Over time we found our groove and I got to do a lot of fun things.
In the back of my mind, I was like, I don’t know how long I’m going to last here. Partly because of the fit, but also partly because of the relationship with the UFC — not being able to cover the sport the way I wanted to cover it. I tried to check off as many boxes as possible. Hosting a radio show — checked. Doing an E60 profile on my good friend Daniel Cormier — checked. NBA sidelines — checked. OTL, Outside the Lines — checked. SportsCenter — checked. I was trying to do as much as possible because I knew at some point this wasn’t going to be a 25-year-lifer situation. I came to that conclusion pretty early on.
I was going from doing a show in a beautiful studio in New York that I helped design to a very small studio with fewer resources — and then driving to Bristol, Connecticut twice a week. Four-hour round trip, Mondays and Wednesdays. Two hours each way in the same day, twice a week. Sometimes doing a three- or four-hour show, mentally exhausted, and then getting back in the car to drive two hours, often pitch dark in the winter. This wasn’t very fun. And yet here I am — it’s the dream job, it’s ESPN. And then on top of that, all the other drama behind the scenes.
So yeah, I came to the conclusion around last summer: what do you want to do? What would make you happy? Would leaving be the right move?
I knew, honestly, there were people who probably wanted me to leave. People in the UFC probably wanted me to leave.
Sam: If you’re not listening to the background — basically you’ve had an issue, or Dana White, the president of the UFC, has had an issue with you for a variety of reasons. Whether he claims you’re too negative, that you’ve leaked information, there’s always been some tension there.
Ariel: All of it’s wrong. He couldn’t be more wrong. But he has his business and his motives, and it would be great if we could meet in the middle like we once did. But that’s neither here nor there at this point.
So yes, I knew he wanted me out. He wanted me out from the moment the news came out that I was signing — he was trying to prevent me from even having day one at ESPN. And just being 100% honest, I’m a petty guy. There was a part of me that almost wanted to stay in spite of him. I didn’t want them to win. I knew they would celebrate if I left.
In fact, when I announced that I was leaving ESPN, I got a text message from an unknown number saying, “I told you we’d get you out of ESPN. Bye-bye.” I don’t know who sent that text message. I have my theories. But I needed to go talk to someone to figure out how to get over that — to not stay at a job out of spite, which is absolutely ludicrous. To ask myself: what makes me happy? What gives me fulfillment? To wake up and be excited to be around people who support you, who make you happy.
I had to get over that in my brain, and thankfully I did. I don’t have any regrets.
Therapy, Petty Helwani, and Getting Over It [00:18:00]
Sam: Do you tell the therapist about Petty Helwani? Does the therapist support all these characters you have in your arsenal?
Ariel: Sometimes she’s like, “Okay, what is the end goal here? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you bringing more stress?” But she really helped me realize what is important and what makes me happy — not sticking around to stick it to people.
And as I’ve said on my show, I don’t know if I end up at this point without talking to a therapist. I was always someone who was afraid of it because I thought it made me weak — a sign that I was needing help. And I’m so happy and thankful that I got to that point. It was a weird way to get there, but I was able to talk to someone who helped me figure things out.
Shaan: Therapy is like exercise. Even if you look skinny, you should still exercise. Even if you’re in an okay place, you should still go. And particularly if you’re in a bad mental spot, you should definitely do it.
Ariel: My Peloton bike helped me a lot too. A lot of things helped me clear my head.
I also didn’t want to have ill feelings toward ESPN. I love sports. I was just watching my Knicks beat the Celtics in an incredible double-overtime thriller on ESPN last night. I didn’t want to be the guy who couldn’t watch ESPN, who felt some sort of way about this company that meant so much to me.
I don’t have any animosity — not toward the people there, not toward anyone. They kept their word. They paid me till the very end. They stayed true to the contract. They even offered me a new contract — unlike what other people are trying to say about me being fired. I was never fired. They offered me a contract and I turned it down. I met absolute legends there — Mike Breen, Doris Burke. I will never forget my time. I’m very thankful. But three years was enough.
How His Business Is Set Up Today [00:22:00]
Sam: I want to ask you two things. The second one is about Dana White. But first: your current setup — what do you think is going to be the biggest revenue driver? Is it Substack? Is it BT Sport? YouTube ads? How is your business set up, and where’s your head at in terms of where the opportunity is?
Ariel: My biggest revenue driver right now is Vox Media. They’re paying me the most. That was important to me because The MMA Hour was a show I created and poured everything into from 2009 all the way to 2018. It was heartbreaking to see it end, even though I was going to my dream job. That show meant so much to me and to a lot of people.
Sam: Is that primarily a YouTube channel or also a podcast?
Ariel: It does very well on Apple, Spotify, Google, Stitcher, all those places. And you own it?
Ariel: I do not own it. No. They pay me to do that show. So what’s interesting about my situation is some of the stuff I own, some of the stuff I don’t own. But everyone’s playing nicely together in this sandbox, and I’m very appreciative. It took some time to figure out all the pieces.
Back in February, when I came to the conclusion I was going to leave ESPN, I wanted to do things here and there. Some people call it a Chinese menu — you build out your own thing. But the actual dance of getting everyone to play nice and be on board with all these little different things was the most interesting part of the whole process.
I really lucked out. I found people who are okay with me having my own YouTube channel that’s completely mine, and the Substack, but also doing something for The Ringer/Spotify and also doing something for Vox. It’s been a really interesting exercise.
My friend Pat McAfee — he’s like, “Oh, well, you’re not totally independent, you don’t own everything.” I’m like, okay, if you want to get into the semantics, fine. I don’t own everything. But there’s an independent spirit to all of this where at the end of the day I feel like I’m partnering with other people as opposed to being a full-time employee with anyone. I have an LLC now and I’m able to pick and choose what I do.
The Long Game — Where Is Ariel in 2030? [00:27:00]
Sam: Do you think long-term that Vox stays the biggest piece? Or do you think — some things pay off better immediately and some things you build up over three years and the picture looks different?
Ariel: Are you trying to get me to reveal my five-year plan right here? That’s exactly what I’m trying to do. I’m looking for 2030 Ariel. What’s 20-30 Ariel doing?
Like — who started The Ringer? Bill Simmons. He was in a similar position and sold The Ringer for probably $150–200 million. Is that going to happen for you?
Ariel: That would be nice. Right now I’m very happy with the situation, and it’s kind of flying under the radar, which I’m totally okay with.
What I’m doing on my own YouTube channel is giving me, as I like to say, a lot of nachas — that’s a Yiddish word that means fulfillment and joy in my heart. Every week, every Thursday, I’m posting an interview with someone outside of the MMA world. I’ve been itching for a very long time to show people that I’m more than just an MMA guy — that I can interview other athletes, authors, musicians, comedians, anyone. It doesn’t matter if you’re in sports, if you’re an actor, if you’re a Holocaust survivor. If you’re interesting, I want to talk to you.
I started that about a month and a half ago. It’s just me and two producers — an audio guy, video guy — posting these interviews. I honestly don’t care at this moment if a million people watch or three people watch. I’m doing them to fulfill this passion of mine, to scratch that itch, and also to eventually show the right kind of people that I could do this — that I could be much more than just an MMA guy.
It’s actually the exact same thought process I had when I got into all of this back in 2007. In fact, this past Tuesday marked the 14-year anniversary of me launching my own site, helwanipark.com. It’s still up. I was at Spike TV in September of 2007. After a week there, I walked into my boss’s office and quit. I said I really like creative work — coming up with ideas, thinking through things — and they were just the middleman. The UFC was producing all the content. I said, “I’m really sorry, thank you for the opportunity, but I don’t think this is the right fit.”
He was very upset. “You’re going to regret this for the rest of your life. This is unprofessional. No one’s ever done this.” They made me stick around for a month and a half in my cubicle until they found someone to replace me. That was the crossroads of my life.
Our mutual friend John was actually part of that process — we’d go for lunch during this period, and I’m telling him, “I’m going to start my own website. I’m going to start interviewing fighters. I want to go into MMA journalism. I want to be the Howard Cosell, the Max Kellerman, the whatever of MMA.” So I started reaching out to fighters via MySpace. Every morning I’d post an interview and I didn’t care if five people looked or 500,000. I just wanted to use it to show people what I could do.
14 years later, I’m doing the same thing on my YouTube page. Last week I interviewed Marty Fish, the former tennis player who’s been very open about his battles with anxiety. Friends of mine who have never watched my work, who don’t care about MMA, are like, “Dude, you’re a really good interviewer.” I’m like, yeah, I’ve been doing this for 14 years. But it’s opening me up to a whole new audience and I’m very excited about that.
Niches Get Riches — Why MMA and Why It Worked [00:35:00]
Sam: We have a couple of go-to phrases when it comes to business. One of them is “bet on yourself,” and I think you have a strong dose of that. At each stop you had a quote-unquote good job and you said, “This isn’t it. I’m going to go independent.”
Another one is “niches get riches.” You’re a basketball fan, but you didn’t go into the more established field that had a career track. You went for MMA, which was fringe. Back in 2006, there was no blueprint, no success stories. You kind of are the success story of that niche.
And then there’s this phrase: you want to do work that looks like work to others but feels like play to you. I think you get more energy in hour three of a four-hour show than at the start.
Tell me about the niche thing.
Ariel: Oh, that spoke to my heart. “Niches get riches” — because I couldn’t agree with you more.
When I got to Syracuse for the first time, I wanted to be the next Costas, Marv Albert — basketball, baseball, football, traditional. “Hello, welcome to ABC Sports, I’m Ariel Helwani, World Series, Super Bowl.” And for the first time in my life I realized: wow, there are a lot of people my age who have the exact same dream as me, who are a little more polished, have nicer hair, don’t have as big of a nose, maybe don’t have such a foreign name. Their name is John Smith and they just fit that Bob Costas mold.
I never liked to follow the pack. So I remember telling my parents in September of 2001: “There’s this sport called mixed martial arts, there’s this organization called the UFC — at this point it’s not even eight years old — and I think it’s going to be mainstream. I think in ten years there’s going to be some executive in some office, some older guy who’s like, ‘What is this crazy cage-fighting sport? I know nothing about it, but apparently it’s very popular. Who’s the guy? Who’s the Howard Cosell of MMA?’ And I want to be that guy.”
Amazingly, literally ten years later — August of 2011 — I was hired by Fox. That was my first big mainstream gig. It kind of worked out in that regard.
I say this to young people all the time when they reach out to me. In this day and age, you don’t want to be a generalist. If I’m a Knicks fan, I’m not going to turn on ESPN Radio and hope they talk about the Knicks game. I’m going to go on my podcast app and go to the New York Knicks podcast — as niche as it gets — to hear an hour breakdown of last night’s game. If I’m a big pro wrestling fan, I’m going to go to my pro wrestling podcast.
The days of sitting in your car and hoping they talk about something you care about — those days are over. It is actually a lot better in my opinion to go into a niche, to be the niche guy, as opposed to being the generalist. There’s a couple of guys who will make it — Stephen A. Smith and those guys — but for the most part in my world, it’s way better to be the niche guy.
And within the niche, have your own niche. My thing is interviews. I tell other people: find your thing. There was a young guy, Mike Bond, he works for MMA Junkie. His niche to get in the door was stats and factoids — he had all these stats about all the fighters. These days maybe it’s betting, which is super hot right now. Use that as your niche to get in the door.
In this day and age of à la carte — podcasts, streaming, all that — the more niche the better. You’ll have way more success rather than being some guy. Those days, 50 years ago when you were a columnist for a newspaper — those days are over.
Audience Size and the “True Fans” Model [00:42:00]
Sam: How big is your audience? The YouTube videos get like 30,000 to 100,000 per video — what do you say the number is, and what advice do you have for getting noticed and building this empire?
Ariel: I’m going to sound wack, but I really don’t know the size. I see the numbers on YouTube, but I never asked for the podcast numbers. I don’t want to know.
That actually was one thing that really bothered me at ESPN. Three weeks into my time there, we sat down and started breaking down numbers — listening rate, completion rate. I don’t want to know this. In the twelve years of me hosting this type of weekly show, I’ve never had a person book the guest for me. I book every single guest. Every name you see on my show, I book myself. I do not have a booker.
Sam: How do you DM Fedor? How does that work?
Ariel: Now I have their numbers. I know what everyone likes — some people respond quicker to DMs, some to WhatsApp, some to iMessage. I never email anyone. You email a fighter, that’s like throwing a toothpick into the ocean. I’m just relentless and obsessive like that. I’d rather put that on myself.
Sam: But you must have an idea. You have a million followers on Twitter. BT Sport has about 1.2 million subscribers on YouTube. Your videos get ballpark 50,000 to 100,000 views each.
Ariel: Okay, I’ll tell you. At ESPN, toward the end, the DC show was getting around 90,000 downloads an episode — once a week, one hour a week. But here’s the problem: they were comparing us to other podcast-only shows, like The Low Post, Zach Lowe’s basketball podcast. But that’s audio only. We have the YouTube show too. So our audience is splintered. If you want to know our total audience, you have to count both numbers.
And honestly, I’ve never listened to you on the podcast app — I always watch. So that’s the thing. The audio podcast is almost like gravy for me. I’m more of a visual guy.
I would guess, using those numbers from a few months back — we’re talking like 200, 250k. But then there’s the breakout stuff, because each interview gets made into its own separate clip. I don’t know, man. What are you trying to stress me out for? I’m just trying to live my life.
Shaan: I think that’s amazing. We’re at 60,000 an episode if you add the YouTube and the pod. What I’ve been studying is this: there are people like you in MMA, guys like Pomp in crypto, Tim Ferriss with the four-hour workweek thing — people who build their brands. I call them solopreneurs or solo media people.
I did a comparison once of Rogan’s show versus the Tonight Show. On every metric — viewership, revenue, headcount — it’s not even close. Rogan just beats down the Tonight Show. But people still from a prestige standpoint think one is a TV show where you wear a fancy suit and the other is “you just got done with a workout and you sit down in a studio and do a podcast.”
What it looks like to me is you get this number I call your “true fans” — the people who really trust you. Let’s say that’s 250,000 people for you. They’ll follow you wherever you go. They’re not ESPN fans, they’re Ariel Helwani fans. And between two to four percent of your audience will buy anything you do — the paid newsletter, the hoodies, the fund, everything.
Before it used to be: you get famous and you write a book and that’s how you monetize your audience. Now there’s all these new models.
I got friendly with Matthew Berry at ESPN — he has a niche, which is fantasy football. He was doing this before fantasy was sexy, convincing Yahoo and others to go into it. He became the fantasy guy. He’s got his own text-message list, his own fantasy football thing. He got a few carve-outs built into his ESPN contract.
Creator Monetization Ideas — Virtual Restaurants and Courses [00:51:00]
Sam: Can I give you a free idea? No charge for you, Ariel — you’re a friend of the house.
One of the new tools in the creator playbook is virtual restaurants. Mr. Beast launched a pop-up restaurant — Mr. Beast Burger — and overnight he had 200 locations across the country. There are companies like Breaking Tea that will create a virtual restaurant brand. They partner with mom-and-pop shops in every city. They send custom-branded packaging. Only on, say, Saturday nights when there’s a UFC pay-per-view does this restaurant go live. The menu is themed — you make up the names. You don’t have to lift a finger, just approve the branding and tweet it out when the time comes.
I think Mr. Beast did somewhere between $50 and $100 million in revenue off that thing. If you assume a 10% royalty kickback, I’m pretty confident he’s doing somewhere between three and six million a year in passive revenue. You’re not Mr. Beast, but you could do something alongside the pay-per-views.
Ariel: I’m going to steal that. I’m going to steal that.
Sam: I can’t even shoot these guys, so go ahead. You’ve done the boxing thing — I actually followed that and bought one, by the way — I’m a superfan. I appreciate it.
Ariel: You have no idea what that means.
Sam: And here’s the other thing: the journalism school idea. I did a course on writing — how to be a better writer — and I’m nobody compared to you. I did around $250k last month in this course. I create the course once, then I just say “the new batch opens next month” and it runs again. At the end of the course, I ask people: you paid whatever, $900 — how much value do you think you got out of this for you and your business? On average they say about $10k. They get a 10x return on what they believe they got out of it.
I could send a film crew to you right now, film a course on how to break into journalism, how to make it as a journalist. Screw Syracuse. The people who really want this — all you need is a thousand people who pay a thousand dollars each. That’s a million dollars a year of basically pure profit, because the video production costs are very small.
Ariel: Wow. This is great stuff. Who would have thought I’d come on here and get all these ideas? Can you help us now?
Shaan: Talk to me about audience building. You’re talented and you have tenacity — you’ve been doing it forever. But what advice do you have on audience building and getting noticed?
Audience Building — Niche, Consistency, Relationships [00:59:00]
Ariel: My mindset was always: look at the landscape, look who’s out there doing things. It’s okay to derive some inspiration from someone, but at the end of the day you need to develop a unique voice and give people a reason to tune in to you specifically. Don’t be a copycat. So that was my big thing — the interview lane. No one is doing this in MMA. I should develop my own voice in this lane and be the leader here.
The second thing is it’s exhausting. You have to work your ass off to build the audience, to put the content out, to make it as good as possible. Be consistent. Pick a day — if you’re doing a podcast, Monday is your day. Don’t miss a Monday. People who do one here, take a break there — it’s very hard. You have to be consistent, reliable, relentless, professional.
My thing was reaching out to fighters, being very respectful, very professional. I would keep them for like 20 minutes in hopes of getting them to come back next time. Because it’s not just about this time — it’s about the next time and the next time. You don’t want them thinking, “This guy kept me for an hour, what a pain in the ass. I’m not doing this again.”
Then afterwards — very thankful, very professional. Over time, developing these relationships. Checking in with fighters. It’s not fighters for everyone — it might be tech people, it might be anyone. I don’t just reach out to Michael Bisping when I want him on my show. We talk about things all the time. In some respects, some of these guys have become friends of mine. They don’t feel like they’re being used.
It’s important to be a human being toward your guests, your sources. When it is time to ask for something, they’re more than happy to help because you’ve already asked about their dog who passed away, their wife who had surgery, their son who won a big thing in football. It’s always genuine — I’m not checking in on the dog because I hope it’ll pay off in three weeks. It’s just being a human being about all this.
Social media is a massive thing now. I don’t care if you have one follower or a million followers — you have to put the clips out. It’s so funny, I hear from people all the time: “That thing Rose said on your show was awesome.” And in the back of my mind I’m thinking, “That’s the one clip we chose from the interview. Did you watch the whole interview or just the Instagram clip?” And oftentimes it’s just the Instagram clip. And that’s okay. It’s just about being out there, getting the stuff out, making it shareable — and hopefully it attracts more people to check you out.
But if this doesn’t happen overnight, remember: I started this particular part of my life in 2007. I graduated in 2004. It took me 14 years just to get to ESPN. A lot of people are impatient. They want to see results right away. It’s just not going to be that way.
Work Schedule and Team Size [01:08:00]
Sam: How often are you working? UFC fights end around 1am. How many people does it take to run your content operation?
Ariel: I feel like I work every day. I don’t know if that’s good or bad, but it’s for the most part a pleasure. I don’t ever feel like I need a break.
Going back to the therapist stuff — I was terrified of leaving ESPN and then disappearing. But then I came to the conclusion that distance makes the heart grow fonder for me and for the audience. June 15th was my last day at ESPN and I essentially disappeared until August 15th. I was still on social media, still doing stuff here and there, but I took a two-month break. It was freaking awesome. I went home to Canada to see my parents for the first time in two years because of the pandemic. I really needed that break. If you’ve been doing something for a very long time, I think it’s important to give yourself that kind of rest.
But for the most part now, I feel like I’m working every day — especially with all these different people and all these different projects and the travel. There is no real break, and I’m okay with that. You find your moments.
I could be a lot better. I wish I could put the phone away sooner at night. I wish I didn’t wake up and check my phone right away. I wish I was a little more present at times. I’m working on that.
But I’ve never been happier. The work has been so fulfilling and it puts me in such a good mood to create this stuff and to be there for people. There’s no greater compliment than when someone writes me and says, “I had a horrible day and then I watched your show and it made me forget about it.” Or during the pandemic, “You and DC used to make me laugh.” I just got a message from someone in Australia: “I’m so happy your show is four hours again — you give me eight hours a week of stuff to think about outside of the lockdown.”
There is no greater joy than that for me.
And I haven’t been to a UFC fight in a year and a half. March of 2020 was my last one. And you ask me — big-time fight, Conor McGregor’s return, Las Vegas T-Mobile Arena, sold-out crowd on a Saturday night in July, the buzz, the celebrities, the atmosphere — nothing better, right? Or: do you want to go to your son’s soccer game with ten other parents there at the park nearby? I am choosing that soccer game without a shadow of a doubt.
I get so much enjoyment being at those games, being a parent, being with my kids. There was a time where I thought I had to be at every event, leave my family, travel every weekend, because I needed to be omnipresent. Woody Allen once said 80% of success is just showing up. That served me early in my life. It doesn’t serve me anymore.
Now I’m able to pick and choose what I want to do, work with people I want to work with, do the content I want to do, and be there for my family and my kids at this stage of their lives. I never thought I’d get to this point. I’m so thankful to the man above — it all kind of fell into place.
Sam: Someone send that clip to Conor. Ariel chooses a six-year-old soccer game over Conor McGregor’s return.
Ariel: It’s the truth. I used Conor because that’s the biggest name possible. The point is — I used to have FOMO. I used to feel sad and depressed when I wasn’t at the events because I felt like I was becoming irrelevant. I don’t feel that way anymore.
The Content Team and Where It Goes From Here [01:18:00]
Sam: Before we wrap up — the content team. What’s your team and process?
Ariel: So the dream obviously is — I don’t know if you guys are fans of Pat McAfee, but I think he is doing sports media better than anyone right now. He has about eight or so guys doing work for him. His social media is brilliant — they’re often tweeting things out and he’s not even a part of it. It’s a well-oiled machine. And then he’s going to do SmackDown, he has his private plane. What a life.
I am nowhere near that at the moment. Also, I didn’t play in the NFL. But right now I have three people who work with me — one person on social media, one on video, one on audio. That’s just my LLC. And then I have people on the other projects — Vox has people who work with me there, The Ringer has people, etc.
I would love to grow that out. But I think the three most important people to have right now — all those interviews you saw from me over the years, I only had one cameraman. I didn’t have an audio person, I didn’t have anything. You don’t need a gigantic team to do stuff. But yes, it would be nice over time to have maybe two social media people, someone managing — I was laughing because you said you had Ben who did the scheduling, and I was like, man, I wish I had a Ben. I wish I had someone doing my scheduling. That’s part of my problem — I don’t do well at delegating.
It will come, it will grow. And eventually it’ll be fun to have a merch store, to do the stuff you’re talking about, and maybe make money off of it — and not feel bad about it.
Turning 40, on Life and Being Happy [01:23:00]
Ariel: I mean, there’s a lot more. I feel like I’m just — I’m 39. I’ve never been happier about my age, my life. I remember being a young kid and going to Boston for my mom’s 40th birthday. I remember she locked herself in the bathroom crying because she was so sad to turn 40. I joke about this with her now as I’m about to turn 40. I’m so happy to be 40. I feel way happier at 39, 40 than I was at 19, 20. I just can’t wait to see how this all plays out.
Controversy as a Business Tool — Petty Helwani [01:25:00]
Sam: Last thing — you mentioned Jake Paul, you talked about audience building and consistency and hard work, but there’s also controversy. Jake Paul is the master of controversy. Conor McGregor is the master of controversy. And you have leaned into it. You are the number one MMA guy — and you have a feud with the president of the UFC. Brendan Schaub now has a little bit of a feud with you. It’s highly entertaining. I click every single one. Because everybody loves drama, everybody loves the fight. Tell me about that — is it intentional? Is it good for business? Are you having fun? Are you actually angry? What’s going on?
Ariel: Okay. First, I am not banned for life. I was banned for 48 hours back in 2016. Over time there’s been some revisionist history where people think I’m still banned. I’m not. I’ve been to a bunch of events since then.
But yes, there was that feud, and now as I’ve come into this new era — this persona: Helwani, Thug Nose, El Nadiz, whatever you want to call me — I’ve just enjoyed being able to respond to people.
I think part of this comes from the fact that at ESPN, they kept telling me, “Take the high road, take the high road.” A lot of people were taking shots at me and I had to muzzle myself, censor myself. And then all of a sudden I became free, and as a byproduct of being told to take the high road for three years, I just kind of snapped and exploded.
I’m not this wimp that people think I am. I don’t have big muscles, I’m not a fighter, I know. But I’m a crazy, fiery Middle Eastern kid who grew up getting into fights all the time while playing sports. I have glasses, I look nerdy — and at times I’ve leaned into that, because that’s a good gimmick in this world of big strong fighters and alpha males. I’m the beta, but I’m really not that guy.
The idea of letting people talk smack about me, walk all over me, disparage my name, lie about me — it’s just not going to happen anymore. And it was funny — Brendan was saying “I wouldn’t say this to his face.” Did you guys forget that I stood in front of Rampage Jackson when he wanted to bite my head off? Did you guys forget that Nick Diaz wanted to beat me up? Did you guys forget that Mayhem Miller trashed my studio and I just sat there? I would say anything to anyone’s face.
Brendan said a bunch of lies about me, and I said something back, and people liked it, and then he kept doubling down. I didn’t go into this saying, “I’m going to start wars with people.” It’s just that now I don’t have someone telling me to take the high road, and I’m a little older and a little more confident and a little wiser — and people are enjoying it.
I’ve realized over time that people want to know more about me. They want to see me talk about myself. It doesn’t always have to be about the guests. That takes some time to get used to, because you’re taught very early in your career that it’s not about you — you’re not the story.
But yeah, now I’m just having fun with it. None of it is fake. None of it is a work. I’m not looking for any of this. I’m not trying to get paid off of it. I’m just tired of people talking smack about me and having to eat it. Those days are over. I don’t care who you are — I’m going to clap back. And I think I’m pretty damn good at the promos. I may not be able to fight you, but I can go toe-to-toe in a verbal war.
And it feels good to stick up for yourself.
Sam: This is why I was nervous to talk to you — because you’re sharp and you’re not afraid.
Closing — Advice for Believers Who Aren’t Confident [01:33:00]
Ariel: I want to be respectful. We’re at the top of the hour. I hope you’ve enjoyed this, because I sure have. I hope you felt like this was worth your while. I appreciate all the questions about building the business and betting on yourself. I’m learning a lot about that as well — all this LLC stuff, talking to my accountant.
I would urge anyone out there who is passionate about what they do and who believes in what they do: I don’t have a lot of confidence. If you and I went and got coffee right now, Sam, you’d be a much more more confident person than me. You’ve sold your company and you’re loving life. I’m actually a very shy person. A quiet person. I keep to myself. I had horrible social anxiety.
However, when it comes to this stuff, I believe in myself. I believe that no one can do it better than me. That sounds cocky, but it took me a long time to be able to say that. And so I’m really enjoying getting to do this stuff on my own, the way I want to do it, without anyone telling me how to do it.
I appreciate your interest in my story. It’s been a therapy session for all of us.
Sam: A little bit. Thursdays is my therapy day, so I canceled my session for you guys. I’m doubling down here.
Ariel: I hold on to things forever. You stood me up last month, just so you know. I’m not gonna go back there. But I love it.
Sam: I know. I’ve listened to you long enough. I know this. But I love it.
Ariel: As your therapist today, my feedback: charge more. Don’t feel guilty about it. If you are the best, you deserve the best.
Sam: I appreciate that. In fact, I’ll just say — I’m doing a thing for the founding members of my Substack. I’ll do it three more times over the course of the year — just for founding members, the people who paid $180 to sign up. The Substack is $5 a month, $50 a year, or the founding member deal which is $180. I picked 180 because the number 18 is a special number for Jewish people.
I’m doing a super-secret VVIP one-night-only, no-holds-barred Zoom chat where they can ask me whatever they want for an hour. No recording it. It’s supposed to be VVIP. I’m going to spill all the tea, release all the dirt on all the bad people out there. But it’s just for us. And honestly, I’m kind of nervous no one’s going to show up, so it might just be me and you, Sam.
Sam: As Sam calls it — I would love that. Come through.
Ariel: Thanks, man. This was badass. Hopefully you’ve enjoyed it. Come back again, just don’t stand me up next time.
Sam: Let’s go. Thanks, guys.