Episode of My First Million with Sam Parr and Shaan Puri.
Transcript
Note: This transcript was auto-generated from YouTube captions. It may contain errors and lacks speaker identification. A full Gemini audio transcript will replace this.
Kind: captions Language: en and i was like wait a minute sean so you’re telling me that there’s a website that you invest money in you don’t know who made it it doesn’t work a lot of the times and you can’t get the money out right and he’s like yeah i was like oh okay got it just making sure we’re on the same page what’s up uh sean here we have sam and we got a guest his name is matter i’m said it right because it’s not a like ladder but people know you as diamond hands uh if they’ve been following we did a section on the podcast i don’t know how many months ago where i was like hey there’s this thing that caught my eye it’s called bitcloud and it’s this crazy idea of a social network where it’s almost like a robin hood meets twitter it’s like everybody’s got their every profile every person has their own coin and you can like invest in people and you can buy their coin and people’s prices can go up or down as they get more famous and um i said you know there was a couple i said i don’t know if this is going to work but i do hope that someday there’s a like a decentralized social network so a social network that’s not you know super top-down controlled the way facebook is the way twitter is and um this is the first credible attempt i had ever seen i had seen some other experiments but this is the first credible one where i said oh they have a growth hack and the growth hack is that when i saw my profile my profile was already created for me it was a clone of my twitter profile and i think it had like sixty thousand dollars sitting in the piggy bank and it just said claim it verify your account like claim it and that money’s yours and i said oh that’s going to work people are going to respond to that kind of incentive sam did it too sam you had i don’t know what 50 000 of your thing sam claimed it and withdrew within a month or something like that he bounced out of there but um so people will remember big cloud you were the creator of big cloud at the time you were an anonymous account only known as diamond hands now big cloud has been renamed to diesel essentially that’s you know the new brand and you’ve come out in the public and now you’re doing podcasts so that’s where we are welcome to the show big cloud’s awesome that’s a great name i love that name uh yeah man i mean so just for context sam and sean thanks for that awesome intro man uh yeah i mean so since early 2019 i’ve been working really on a blockchain that can power social social networks uh you know not just bitcloud but many other apps now they’re actually over 100 apps being built on the actual blockchain itself which we call decentralized social or dso uh and so uh big cloud was actually just the first app that really we launched on the blockchain um and so kind of after working on it for almost two years from early 2019 we were like hey you know uh now let’s kind of put all the features together that this blockchain can support into some kind of product uh and so that was bitcloud and it was really just a prototype and it was intended to kind of exercise and test uh a lot of the functionality but the biggest one is like the storage and the indexing of posts which is a very hard problem for for blockchains to solve and i don’t think anyone other than diesel really has has had a good solution to that um but uh but yeah obviously we launched it so let me give a little let me give a let me give a layman layman explanation of this so sam i don’t know if you know this but um there are actually a bunch of different types of of blockchains because the apps that you’re building on top of them have different needs so like you know bitcoin has its blockchain and it’s all it’s trying to do is you know really store value be super secure it doesn’t need to be the fastest uh because bitcoin’s not about speed it’s about security really above all else and then ethereum was like okay we’re going to make a blockchain that’s more programmable it’s going to have maybe less security than bitcoin because it’s more programmable but it’s going to be able to do all these other things and then like these apps came out like on top of ethereum that were like crypto kitties and top shot which were basically like the first kind of like nft projects that got big and they immediately like overwhelmed the ethereum network and so the guys who built uh nba top shot when they uh you know they were the same crew that built cryptokitties so when they went out to build maybe a top shot they actually made their own blockchain called flow and flow was optimized for the use case of trading nfts and uh it can do higher volumes so they all have different tradeoffs and so what you’re saying is you made a blockchain that was good at doing one thing which is social networks are basically about posting photos and videos and containing all that but today if you go try to embed a photo and a video on top of the bitcoin blockchain or ethereum blockchain it would be it’s not made for that and so it would be either too big too slow two whatever just to render one like news feed so you guys built your own so is the name of the blockchain diesel and the app is yeah cloud is that idea and bitcoin by the way sean it’s really interesting it’s actually just one app there’s actually over a hundred now uh that are built on top of it so you could like actually see the same data yeah you say that but like does anybody use any of these apps like you know i got 100 items on my desk they’re all worthless does anyone care does anyone care about these hundred apps on top of these stuff like that yeah sean what’s really interesting is diamonddap.com is actually more popular than bitcloud already now um so i think it just passed it even though it launched like a week ago uh polygram.cc is the app that people go to for nfts so actually when people share dso nfts they actually usually share links to polygram not bitcloud pulse is really good for trading coins and clout feed is actually a mobile app uh by the way cloudfeed i think might already have more users than bitcloud as well which is kind of crazy um okay i use cloudfeed uh because it’s because there’s no mobile app right so i think that’s one of the challenges why isn’t there an app because you’re almost sort of playing with one hand tied behind your back twitter facebook they can send you push notifications they’re a normal app for cloudfeed i had to like save something to my ho i had to safely save a website onto my home screen to make it look like an app and but they still can’t do push notifications so is there a rule that’s that apple’s blocking or google play is blocking no well there are apps so there’s cloud feed and flick app is actually another one uh that’s actually created by the former ceo of fanduel and it’s also very very popular but really like sean you’re touching on our strategy which is we actually don’t want to build any products at all i didn’t even want to launch bitcloud ideally uh i think that with this kind of next wave of social i think what we’re going to see is kind of a separation of concerns where you have this blockchain which is the diesel blockchain that powers you know kind of the back end of all these things and then people who are much better than me at building products actually go out there and build them right um and so for example if you look at diamond app or you look at polygram.you know again polygram.cc you go to them and you’re like whoa this looks way better than that crappy craigslist like thing that nader built on you know which is bitcloud um and so it’s really the strategy for us to not build anything and to let we call it the app layer to be owned by other people to give it away actually so i think we should i think we should do two things i think we should explain why this matters because to most people you’re saying like polygram and diamond app and it’s like these are things they’ve never heard of and they should go check it out but like i think i think it’s more important to just get have the idea click in their head first which is if i went to facebook let’s say i was a bad guy right i go to facebook and i wanted to take the most valuable thing i could take yeah it wouldn’t you know it wouldn’t be the engineers it wouldn’t be the sign out front it wouldn’t be mark zuckerberg i couldn’t even mark zuckerberg is less valuable than the one most important thing it’s basically the database right so facebook would guard with its life access to the database which is basically a whole bunch of rows that says sam parr here’s his date of birth here’s his his profile picture here’s who he’s friends with and that information they keep under lock and key and they give out little tidbits like when they created a platform or you could build a facebook app on top of facebook or you can do login with facebook they give you a little bit of access because it’s so valuable right if i’m an app i don’t want to make you go through a full registration form and upload a photo and then ask you to name all your friends and add them if i could just let you push one button and boom i grab your facebook profile and your facebook friends that was really powerful idea but facebook obviously keeps it under lock and key and what’s cool about it this is the same way that like you know what’s the most valuable asset that the us government has it’s either the the guns or the money it’s one of the two but let’s just take the guns out for a second the money right the right to to sort of print the money and say we get to collect taxes in this currency therefore we have a monopoly on money and bitcoin kind of broke that monopoly in a way it said hey here’s money without the government if you like the money part but you don’t want the government you can use bitcoin and what you’re kind of doing is the same idea which is you’re turning a social network inside out the thing that facebook and twitter would never do they would never just give you account root access to its database what you’re saying is here’s a social network and the database is fully open and available to all if anybody wants to build any app you can use this database it is fully transparent and accessible that’s the main reason it exists and so you’re kind of taking a social network and you take the thing they protect at its core and you’re turning it inside out you’re putting it right at the surface for other people to use that’s the big idea for this stuff and what does that mean that means today if you don’t people are complaining about the facebook algorithm right fake news or i don’t like that facebook censored donald trump or i don’t like that facebook did this well your [ ] out of luck you can’t go use facebook too you can’t go use facebook red which has a different algorithm but with with this idea of dso that’s what could happen somebody could just make a new app with a new algorithm that says i’m only going to show pictures of hot girls i’m only going to i’m not going to censor anything or i’m gonna highlight things that you you get to decide how your feed is curated and so you could build another app that people could use without starting all over from scratch so it gives people choice i think that’s the big idea did i get it i made it i missed it yeah and and maybe just to put like a slightly different different take a way of saying it is today you know facebook twitter uh you know they’re really about monopolizing content like you said keeping it under lock and key so that they can show ads on it and if they allow anyone else to build an app like if they allow another company to build an app on that monopolized content they lose those eyeballs and they can’t show ads to them and it impacts their bottom line so really the fact that their business model is driven by ads is what kind of forces them to say okay this content’s under lock and key we’re the only ones who can build apps on it we’re the only ones who can curate it and show a feed uh and we can’t let anyone else uh aggregate eyeballs other than us we’re the only ones so really what deso is about yeah right and there’s one other component you just mentioned there which is the users the people creating all the content essentially doing all the work us the dancing monkeys that go sit on twitter all day coming up with interesting ideas giving them the interesting content we get zero right so like if i go check my twitter ad split or my facebook ad split and facebook made i don’t know how many tens of billions of dollars on ads this year um but i get zero right and and so that’s the other component which is their business model is we got to keep all the eyeballs and then we want to keep as much of the rev share as possible um that’s their their natural kind of the game theory would lead them to do that and with something like dso you know i can make a post i can post on there i go post on big clout and people will literally i can make money off of it basically if my post goes viral i will actually benefit from the virality from the value of my content and that’s the other if all this [ ] works right like forget the blockchain forget about the how it works if it works that’s one thing that’s going to change that the creators who make all the content will get a much larger share of the revenue what what do you think that share ends up being is it more like 50 is it 90 10 is there is there even a rev share like how much do you as the maker of the diesel blockchain get yeah well that’s that’s the funny thing is that today the way facebook makes money is with ads and like you said it doesn’t share very much of that with the creators because when you have a monopoly on something you know you can be pretty greedy about it um and so deso we’re really all about opening up the contents instead of monopolized content it’s open content so when you make a post on bitcloud for example it actually shows up in the in diamond app in cloudfeed and all these other apps because again the content is open it’s kind of like a utility rather than a monopoly um and the question then if you if you have all the content open is like okay wait but like how does anyone make money if all the contents open like can’t like show ads you know on uh you know when all the content is open you know that’s why facebook is the way that it is uh but um the interesting thing is uh when you put all of the content on a blockchain uh you actually get two things you get openness you know that you know all the content is open anyone can build on it which we’ve been talking about but you also get access to kind of a new set of of features that involve money in a very direct way um and so uh you know for example right what you were talking about earlier is the fact that you know someone can have a coin associated with their profile that anyone can buy or sell right that was that was one of the features that uh you know the diesel blockchain supports that feature is very difficult to do in a centralized way uh both because kind of the traditional financial system is very kludgy so to have it for example b that anyone in any country can like throw tens of thousands of dollars around left and right uh you know the traditional financial system isn’t really built for that um and then um aside from that right it’s all open so people can actually build on it and iterate and create new experiences off of that same that same kind of money feature set that we haven’t even thought of before um and so going back to how does anyone make money right the dso blockchain has a native coin called dso right and so by holding it similar to how anyone holds bitcoin right as more usage comes on to that blockchain the you know people the demand for diesel should go up which should cause the price to increase um you know and then everyone who holds diesel does very well um but aside from that you know because that’s how you know i and anyone who’s bought diesel makes money um you know the creator can basically keep the rest um and so there might be small fees charged by the apps that kind of enable the creator to do like you know for example cloudfeed um or diamond app might charge small fees in order to earn an honest living and to to make good money um and so i think we might see uh you know basically um a splitting of the market by a bunch of different apps that kind of charge small fees to allow the creators to do what they do but that’s competitive as opposed to monopolistic and will hopefully result in a lot more of the value accruing to the creator as a result so that’s kind of the way to think about it just a couple of kind of quick questions because sean is deeper in this world than i am and i actually think that there’s a few more interesting stories here than just the technology so how how many people work there right now as full-time staff yeah so uh we have about a dozen people how much yeah yeah and and what’s funny is that team we’re now focusing mainly on the blockchain and so but if you count all the people who are working on apps you know yeah but they probably got hundreds of they’re just using your right and and totally so yeah only 12 people that’s crazy so you raised you raised funding to do that yeah i think 100 million dollars right uh yes it’s actually 5 000 bitcoin which uh you know has appreciated a bit and um yeah and you raise money so you raise money but besides that money can you tell me how much money has been invested so darmash who we’ve had on this pod i think i i don’t i don’t know but if i had a guess i wouldn’t be surprised if you spent over a million buying other people’s coins uh roughly i i think he said it publicly i think he said it on on big cloud so how much you’re investing over a million dollars can you tell me how much has been invested on the platform um yeah well so what’s really cool is because it’s a blockchain it’s open and all of this data is open so you can go for example to prospercloud.com uh or you know i think bitcloudpulse.com stats or like any of these websites and they’ll tell you i think right now there’s about 80 million dollars invested in people’s coins which to me is absolutely awesome i think we actually yeah yeah yeah it is it’s awesome um and all that does that count the money you guys invested because when i showed up from day one you guys did a smart growth hack which you sort of pre-bought a bunch of coins from naval and from jamaath and from kim kardashian and whoever so you kind of bought coins at a very low price for all these so that their accounts had some initial value which would attract those people to come claim their accounts so does that 80 million count the money that you just bought i think it does but i don’t think it was very much very many coins that we actually put in um it was like maybe tens of thousands of diesel you know that went into it um so i’d have to look at actually how much of it is that appreciation of that but yeah but there’s definitely a piece of work in that for the people wait let me say one more thing people are listening we’re looking at you now you’re in a dark room you have the shades pulled down we had biology on here um a while ago and he had the same thing it was very dark and he was like you know i don’t and he said on the pod he’s like i don’t really like talking about my my location because because he said i say some crazy i make crazy predictions i’ll speak out against powerful people and i’m you know i don’t want to like take unnecessary risk and let them know where i am are is this are you in the same boat yeah uh no no um i’m very open i’m in la um you know i have a house here you have security house uh i’m a very open person well uh i don’t know if you’re supposed to talk about your security because that you know there’s security dude [Laughter] let me ask this last question this is the last time you guys had a question i love it i love it so you you told me you’re 29. um i looked at your linkedin you’ve had some like all your jobs have been like fancy like high-end really great jobs so but like compared to the job that you have now they were normal is working at big clout at all or uh d so is it at all a normal like are you gonna run this like a normal company or are you gonna be um a little uh like if you had to explain to your parents like how your staff works and things like that would it appear as though you do have a normal a normal company or are you doing some eccentric stuff that would be intriguing yeah well that’s funny actually so uh just to go into some eccentricities of the project um you know that 5000 bitcoin i mentioned uh all that money actually came in before there was any corporate entities set up uh to do anything um and so uh essentially the way it worked was the blockchain was running and if you sent bitcoin to this treasury wallet uh the blockchain would basically watch that treasury wallet and give you diesel coins when it saw that there was a deposit there to like a corresponding key um and so it was all automatic and so there were over 44 000 purchases and i don’t even know 99 of like like them who they are because they could just send bitcoin to that thing and they would get diesel coins on the diesel blockchain uh and yeah we you know we didn’t set up a corporate entity um and that was you know kind of two reasons there’s a big reason that we don’t want people to rely on it to feel like this is a centralized thing that’s going to own everything um you know when you have equity holders you know they’re they have to kind of fiduciary duty forces them to milk everything and to be like hey like we should close this down at some point and really like make money off of it in like a different way uh so that was that was important um but uh but yeah and then you know just just from a regulatory standpoint you know um i i really you know there was no issue or of anything you know you just kind of threw bitcoin in and got diesel back uh and so what happened recently is and obviously that made it very difficult to hire uh you know that made it very difficult to even talk about who we are um but very recently you know the the platform has you know the blockchain has kind of gotten decentralized enough you know where there are thousands of nodes running running things uh there’s like i said like you know over 100 projects a lot of them pretty legit and we felt comfortable setting up a corporate entity and kind of more normalizing how we hire and stuff so now as of a couple weeks ago there’s the diesel foundation um and so i’m on the board of it and i’m i’m the only one right now but we’re hoping to basically bring on some really legit people to join me and so it can actually be this kind of well-governed thing um and everyone’s gonna work for that entity um and so i think going forward it will look very normal uh and it’ll kind of just be a you know an organization that’s a non-profit where people are paid with cash and diesel like a combination of the two uh and um and we develop the blockchain and uh and fund other people to build apps uh like i said we’re giving away the app layer so that’s kind of how we’re thinking about it so early on i remember the story was uh nobody knows the creator but like i heard kind of through back channels oh we kind of know who it is because because it seemed like you went out fundraising because it was like hey this is should i send my bitcoin to this random ass wallet and get back this coin back that i don’t know if i want if and it was no no these are yeah site barely worked it looked like a virus um and then you know and it was like no no there’s so i texted some people i said hey do you know what’s who’s behind this is this legit they said i think it’s legit the guy behind it’s legit the people behind it have are real builders and they said uh you know andreessen and social capital and like a few tier one vcs have like are backing it and so that gave people a lot of comfort and that’s why people like me and others put in money i sent a hundred thousand dollars into into big into into big cloud or whatever to get it wasn’t even called diesel at the time i was yeah different names something same kind and so uh so are you but you’re saying it now like oh i don’t know these strangers on the internet started sending us bitcoin like definitely i’m pretty sure you did some kind of road show or somebody was doing something i don’t know i don’t buy this dentist the bridge there’s two gaps no no you’re way sharper and uh you’re you’re you’re you’re playing us a little no no no no i don’t mean to play anyone uh no totally just to give a little more detail i love it i love it uh but yeah just to give a little more detail um yeah so what what’s funny is uh you know i worked on this on this blockchain for almost two years since early 2019 and i met a lot of investors through my last company which was called basis you know where i raised 140 million dollars and then it didn’t work uh wound up giving you know deciding to kind of do what i think is the right thing give all the money back uh but so what happened with diesel is i kind of worked on it for two years you know alone by myself brought on a couple of good friends uh and then i talked to a bunch of the big names that are now involved so like social capital andreessen sequoia all of them um and so what’s funny about that is that uh i you know obviously i i did i talked to those people uh and so of the 44 000 purchases it’s probably a few hundred where you know i kind of told them hey this is what it is uh and so um what’s interesting about it is but those were the big purchases right so yeah they might be a few hundred but they were yeah millions each i think uh like you know so it might make up eighty percent i think about 30 million dollars worth uh was that um which is i think not not a huge percent and no one has no one owns more than five percent of the supply from that uh so i actually think you know i actually cared a lot about keeping it very well distributed like any good cryptocurrency but um uh but yeah but all of them actually don’t own importantly they don’t own equity in anything uh all of their interest is in the same asset that you or i hold which is d so um some of them used corporate entities to convert dollars to bitcoin in order to do this weird thing uh but they hold d so like those entities hold d so for them uh and they’ll like take delivery like you know whenever they want so so that’s cool and i think at the beginning you had a bunch of things sort of like we just retraced this story right so you do basis you you have this idea for a stable coin you end up giving back the money when you decide it’s not going to work you um this new new idea for for a decentralized social network you raise some money from legit hitters other people pile in like you’re saying it’s all pretty quote unquote fair which is that we’re all owning the same thing and then you get to the point of the launch you’re you decide to be anonymous you try to go the satoshi route um but it doesn’t work why didn’t that why’d you want to do that and why didn’t that work too many people yeah well so yeah so basically you know been working on this blockchain the diesel blockchain for almost two years and uh we were like hey you know we should really launch kind of a prototype app to start testing it like in the in the field so to speak and that was bitcloud um and we wanted to you know not really like have it go mainstream until at least like the middle of this year like the middle of 2021 um and so but you know we obviously launching earlier is better and so we kind of accelerated said okay in march we’re going to start sharing these like password protected links with some people just get a few hundred users kind of see how the blockchain is holding up with like this kind of activity uh and so um yeah so so what ended up happening was uh it it you know kind of went out of control and the links got like way over shared um and to the point where i kind of had to go out there uh you know i had to start you know saying hey like this is what this is and and this is like you know what’s going on uh but um for me personally you know i’ve always been really i think i’ve always admired how like satoshi kind of like launched bitcoin um without creating kind of like a centralized person that everyone kind of relies on or like this is our you know our guy um so it was really i wanted to kind of do the same thing there uh and so i launched with you know uh pseudonym diamond hands um and immediately you know it was kind of very hard to get press it was hard to get people to kind of listen to the story that that is the real story versus making up their own uh and so we had a lot of uh press saying hey like this is a scam and by the way because it was just a prototype there were a lot of things were missing so you couldn’t cash out your money you couldn’t actually convert your money and i was like wait a minute so you’re telling me that there’s a website that you invest money in making sure we’re on the same page here yeah right rightfully so uh any any other time i would say that’s a complete scam also none of the code was open so even though it’s a blockchain and it was running on a few dozen nodes like no one could actually audit it or be like hey this is a real thing uh so we were just not prepared at all let me let me tell you something there was a whole bunch of criticisms like what you’re talking about right the code is not open source you can’t cash out oh they scraped our twitter profiles um oh there’s you know there’s a big pre-buy people got in super cheap uh you know all this stuff there was all these criticisms of it we don’t know who the founders are you know they’re kind of anonymous but my theory and you tell i wanna know what you think about this so i have this phrase which is i think emotion commits the crime and then logic does the cover-up so all these logical complaints i don’t think are the real reason why people were so like up in arms about this new project that actually is like a really net like it would if something like this existed it would be a huge net positive in the world and those same people hate facebook well this is the antidote if something like this could actually get off the ground and work and so um i was surprised that the emotion was there and i think i at least this is my theory i think that people don’t like when someone gets rich without quote unquote earning it and i think what people saw is that the insiders so the people who created it or maybe the early buyers they bought so early on the bonding curve they got so early on and wow 100 million dollars has come into this thing these coins have run up in price or the the profiles have gone up in price and there was this feeling like like i don’t know i don’t know how well you did but here’s my guess i think you’ve made tens of millions of dollars already liquid without uh at the minimum and your project is like under 10 000 dau or something like that right so uh or under 50 000 let’s say so like in already in the tech world this tech gets backlash because people will raise at like 100 million valuation and people are like oh i’ve been running this restaurant and laundromat for years and how does this little app with you know with with no business model be worth 100 million dollars right there’s already people who get upset about that but but the one saving grace is that they’re not liquid so it’s not like the founders running around in a lambo just living in a mansion in l.a but in crypto you’re liquid too so you you get the early hype and you get the liquidity of the lambo and the mansion and i think that that is actually what triggers people about crypto in general bitcoin in general you know people who buy an nft and they get rich you know they make a million dollars off this random image um to i think to other people that feels inherently unfair and so do you what do you think is my theory what do you think of my theory and then what’s your kind of response to the people who do feel that way i think there must be some like validity to your theory because if you read there’s a great book called the infinite machine about ethereum and it catalogs like what happened ethereum how it launched all this stuff they got major backlash from bitcoin people because of the way they raised money where they were like hey like you know projects aren’t supposed to like take bitcoin for you know another [ ] coin like you know this is like bad i mean i read that book right after you know kind of everything that was happening with bitcloud and i was like this is eerily similar um so so i think part of part of what you’re saying has to be part like like a factor um you know dude look that said you know since then diesel is listed on exchanges you can trade it on blockchain.com ascendex and a really big one you know a couple big ones are coming soon and you know like the code is all open and people have gotten really passionate about it um you know contributing to it the last couple people we’ve hired are like open source like they were just contributing to and we hired them so i think that um you know if i saw someone who’s very clearly a scammer making lots of money i would be upset in a way that i would be i wouldn’t be as upset if i felt like there was a shred of them not being a scammer which we didn’t have because i was anonymous you couldn’t cash out the app was going down a lot um so uh whatever whatever theory there is is probably exacerbated can i give you some feedback and it’s like it’s a compliment i i when you first launched i was like diamond hands like when i think of diamond hands i think of finance bros and um i you know when i think of this anonymous thing i was like i actually i’m not on board with this although i agree i think it was wise for you to launch anonymously i actually think it’s wonderful that you’re coming out because your personality even though we’ve only known each other for 45 minutes now your personality guy for some you have a very trusting you you give off trustworthy vibes and i actually think it’s it’s you’ve done the right move by coming out and and discussing things um i actually it makes me like big clout more before the way that it looked and the diamond hand’s name i was like i don’t know if i uh if this if this screams trust but you i i think it’s good to have like what what’s the uh like i’m a pretty big new but what’s the founder of ethereum how do you say yeah so i thought i watched a lot of his interviews screams trustworthy like i i i i like i buy what he’s saying i’m like oh you’re like he’s really young but he’s way wise beyond his ears he says a lot of intelligent things that i agree with he seems good-natured you have a very similar quality so i think it’s smart that you’re doing it and let’s not lie sam vitalik looks like a boy genius like uber nerd and we’re like oh let’s invest in this this guy is probably going to make it matter but that you know you’re the perfect mix of like intelligent nerd but you also like look pretty slick you’re good-looking yeah you’re smooth you you’ve got a good you’ve got your personal uh anyway it’s so this is a compliment i think it’s good that you’re doing what you’re doing you’re too kind man i appreciate it let’s do let’s do one one like thought exercise because i think most people still aren’t going to really fully understand okay if a social network oh decentralized blah blah blah so let’s take about let’s think about it from the perspective of the user who doesn’t care if a database runs on sql or the blockchain and um who you know they’re going to use something because it provides some new value to them right so even the idea of like it not being a monopoly like i think most people are inherently fairly lazy and they they’re probably gonna just go with a default app anyways uh you know for a social network even if there was more choice so let’s just take the actual like fun bit so on big clout there was this idea that every creator every user had a coin and so i had a coin and i you know you give me a number i want it to go up i’m i’m like a monkey i’ll immediately start playing whatever game is required for that number to go up and so my coin started at a certain price i remember it at its peak it was like five thousand dollars a coin my market cap was like half a million dollars i was on top of the world and now i stopped using it it’s crashed i’m down 4x and all this good stuff but what is the aside from the you know pure gambling side of speculation and just the joy of seeing money go up whether as a holder or the owner of the coin what is the actual purpose why should individuals on a social network have their own coin what would you do with that why is that a good idea and just walk through like a use case so no theory but like here’s jo here’s guys here’s why sam would want this and why that’s good like the idiot of this podcast i’ll take it he was like sam so do you know that there’s different blockchains yeah go ahead matter i’ll let you i’ll i’ll let you leader of that no i do talk talk to me like i’m fine totally uh well like yeah i mean look it’s a great question i mean so um there’s a deeper story to uh you know and so by the way the diesel blockchain supports all kinds of money stuff right not just coins but also nfts and diamonds which are like tips uh and people can build other things too but the the coins having a coin associated with your profile is kind of what i think to be kind of you know this this wave was about nfts i think the next wave is going to be about creator coins also known as social tokens um and the reason why i got really excited about them as a as like kind of an asset class uh is actually a cash flow story so essentially um you know with with dso right uh when you use any app right to access diesel uh you can do a lot of the same things you do on a traditional social network like you can post uh and you know all that kind of stuff um but you know you can also do stuff with money and you have new ways to monetize uh that kind of arise and so what’s interesting is that um essentially you can have creators making money through these other features and then take a percentage of that cash flow and send it back to that creator’s coin holders as a dividend long term um and so just to give an example right today when you sell an nft on any diesel app you know like polygram or diamond um you can actually set a percentage that’s like what we call a creator coin a coin holder royalty uh and so every time that nft resells a percentage of that sale goes back to the coin holders um and so i think that essentially the coins if you if you play this out right uh and you have like for example promoted posts where someone can give you you can have an inbox of posts that people pay you to like repost your followers and and a percentage of that can go to the coin holders um you know you kind of have all of these new kind of like money native you know blockchain native business models for creators making money and if you allow a percentage of that to flow to the coins then suddenly it’s kind of like you unbundled the equity of a company like facebook into like each creator’s coin and therefore the fans or or the holders of that creator and so to me the coins are exciting as a means long term of like democratizing kind of like the cash flows of a social network into the fans of a particular creator and if you play all of that out suddenly it makes it a lot easier for really awesome smaller creators to get discovered right because when you create that that kind of loop of like oh if they become big cash flows will flow to their coin from their monetization on the platform right and those cash flows will be big if they’re popular suddenly you want to back the smaller creator who you recognize is awesome but that nobody else really knows about um and so to me kind of democratizing the ownership of a social media platform is like what the coins are about and creating that incentive for smaller creators to get discovered get invested and have people kind of grow with them um is the kind of the long term of it but obviously it’s early so a lot of people don’t what’s it gonna be thinking about that look like in five or ten years how is this going to be what do you think your business will be like yeah i mean so even in a couple of years you know i mean you know let’s say we have like you know 10 million daily active users right um there are a lot of ways that we can build monetization for creators into the blockchain nfts are already there and creators have made hundreds of thousands of dollars off of that like tens of thousands i think for one of them they had over a hundred thousand dollars flow to their coin already through the cr crater coin royalties uh but there are other features too you know like for example that like that pay to promote uh or pay to repost kind of mechanism where an advertiser can say hey repost this to your fans i’ll give you this amount of money uh and then a percentage of that can flow to the coins so basically any way new ways that we create for creators to monetize on the platform a percentage of that can flow to the coins and suddenly the coins kind of become not just about pure speculation but about hey like what what kind of cash flows is this creator gonna do um and that it’s gonna be a lot because not not just because you know the platform is is more efficient you know like i i do think you know things like nfts things like you know paid repost can be more efficient than the traditional model today where we have kind of a centralized company just showing random ads uh but um yeah but but also just because uh there are so many more things that you can do right that could you know earn cash flows that end up going to the coin that we haven’t even thought about yet so you did the thing that i was hoping you wouldn’t do which is you you did some theory uh so so you know anytime this is the tell in the tech world anytime somebody starts talking about democratizing democratizing it’s the new it’s just a smart guy way of true i can’t stand that word yeah exactly uh you know you want your company to be disruptive and democratizing at the same time right and also if they say there’s a new asset class they’re probably it’s probably a good idea but they’re giving you kind of like the grandiose steve jobs vision um actually i shouldn’t say steve jobs because steve jobs was great at basically saying a thousand songs in your pocket and like just leading with the killer hook and and i think for for this you know what i was hoping you would say and so i’m going to kind of say it here i don’t know if you know this but sam is an aspiring fitness influencer a rising fitness influencer and so those who are yeah rising i should say not aspiring he’s he’s aspired um yeah oh perfect i got my two you want to play oh you’re over here yeah dude bitcoin might not guy next door your niche could it could be like like love it i’ll be like the nerd who you know started really frail and then made his way there’s definitely a need and so you know someone like saying basically i i know sam i say this guy and i see his videos i’m like oh these these are great videos he’s only getting you know a couple thousand views let’s say right now but i i basically what what this world would let me do is as an early believer i can bet on sam i could say i like this guy’s content i think this guy’s gonna blow up and i can kind of vote for his success i can give him some so i can buy his coin which gives him money to like make better content it gives him a little boost of morale to keep going but it also lets me go on the ride with him because i think we’ve all been there before we discover a band early or a brand early or an influencer early and then you’re you’re you believe in them and you’re so you’re so right they actually do take off they never knew you they never had a real relationship with you and you didn’t benefit from the fact that you know kim carter if you knew kim kardashian back when she was just paris hilton’s closet organizer uh and you thought she was great you missed out on the ride and and so this lets your true fans go on the ride with you and it turns your fans into sort of shareholders with you and so oh bro i study this stuff you know kim kardashian where did this come from i have to know i must know and uh and sure enough there’s a story and so you know sam let’s say i would bet on sam sam would get that cash so sam could use that to make a cooler video and when sam makes that video and he gets more followers they have to buy in at a higher price point than i did because now sam’s more established so my stock is going up i’m earning instead of just following right i own instead of just following which is the way the world works today with twitter and instagram you just follow you don’t earn and then this the you know furthermore sam could say hey you know what how do i make my coin really valuable to hold what if i kind of only fans it and i said i’m going to do some exclusive stuff with only my coin holders who hold over 100 of my coin so it’s up to him to decide if he wants to make his coin more juicy more more enticing to hold which again will make my stock go up if i know sam’s the kind of guy he connects with his fans he’s going to put in the effort that’s going to make these coins more valuable and so it takes this idea that’s been around for a long time the thousand true fans the thing that any artist knows that they need those real believers and it turns them into people who actually benefit from your rise and so that’s what i think that’s the good thing that i think will come of this aside from you know destroying facebook and all that good stuff i think the good thing that will come of this it’ll make being a taste maker and a curator like a job pretty much you can actually get paid for having good taste for following for believing in somebody early on which is the way that things should be i think yeah sean how are you better at explaining this than me also i i i’m kind of uh i’m not offended but uh that’s awesome well dude when i first shouted out big clowns okay i gotta come up with a reason that i like this besides i think this is gonna make a lot of money for me uh so i started thinking about what what is the appeal here and i have to defend myself and in doing something with the case that’s true i did i i remember it uh but yeah sean just to add which is really interesting uh like you said there’s actually never been a way to actually invest in someone when they’re small and make money on their rise like in like this easily this efficiently uh and what’s really interesting is there’s actually yet another interesting kind of like layer on it which is once you invest in someone your bias is to be supportive your bias is actually to be hey i want this guy to succeed i want this person to to be something and you can align in a way that you can’t really on like you know without that mechanism like being able to buy into someone you know uh uh creates kind of an incentive that doesn’t exist and what’s crazy is that um even bitcloud you know bitcloud diamond all these apps uh they’re actually very positive discourse a lot of it um even though you know there’s not really any kind of you know there’s not like there’s less moderation than traditional social media right um and the reason i think is basically you’re investing in people right you’re going long uh and and when you give people the ability to to like move money around right people naturally go long and when they go long they actually uh uh get aligned and want to support you um and so weirdly enough like i love like when people say like money is like the root of all evil you know like money is bad and and i think that’s part of why people reacted weirdly to bitcloud because like oh money prices whatever but like if you just look past that for two seconds you’ll see that it’s actually being used as an alignment tool that’s making a lot of positive things happen that haven’t happened what are your um let me let me ask you a couple personal questions real quick what do your parents do for a living yeah so uh my dad is an engineer and my mom is a social worker yeah so my mom was in virginia where i grew up for a long time she actually moved to san francisco uh uh my dad passed away a few years ago but i’m looking at your linkedin you you you’ve always been a freak you went to princeton you know you you’ve all you studied computer science and applied math at princeton you work yeah it’s a compliment that’s a compliment you worked at the famous for uh being high frequency trading but also that’s like that’s where i think jeff bezos worked and uh the founder i forget his name shaw is it just shaw uh david shaw david shaw he’s you know a wizard you work you went to google at uh and you’re a software engineer there and then you raised 125 million dollars for a startup which is crazy or 133 million you you you said on this blog post you gave the money back because you know it didn’t work out so well what are your what does your mom think about like when you’re trying to explain to your mom who’s a social worker my mom’s a teacher so she doesn’t you know and i’m in tech too when you’re explaining to your mom what you do for a living or your aunts and uncles or your brother and sister friends who aren’t you know like you what do they think about this the fact that a 29 year old although you know you’re 25 it looks like when you raise 133 million are they like what do they think of this life that you have yeah i mean so my mom watches every single video that comes out she’s gonna watch this and she’s gonna call me about it and and tell me all her thoughts uh so so there’s that uh but yeah man i mean i just you know i live modest life you know i i don’t think anything really has changed for me personally and like look you know to your point and to sean’s point earlier you know on like oh someone made so much money without like having produced something right um you know i’m very serious about just mentally i don’t think of myself as having any money right until we’ve really made it like you know i’m talking millions of users people really getting value at a large scale right uh so to me it’s very important to not think about oh i’m i’ve made it when you know like like we have a lot to do like left to do um and so yeah and by the way you know funny funny fact uh with basis uh my last company where i raised 140 million and returned it um i actually had less money after that in in my bank account than when i started it which is basically about three years of runway from my like google analytics no i’m very lucky just because you know i mean i had you know like three years of runway like you know maybe like a few hundred k or whatever uh and um i’m very lucky to have had that uh because if i didn’t have that i would have had to go back immediately to working at google which oh my god that’s so bad it’s the best company in the world i’m very lucky right but um but yeah my like it’s funny like i’ve been through like very high highs and like well the lows aren’t very low because i’m very lucky obviously but uh but yeah after basis i was like i’m gonna try and do something else that’s really impactful like not in the context of working at a company and if i can find something before i run out of money that’s great but if not i’m going to go enjoy my life at google which i love you know i really love being an engineer at google yeah i like to talk about human [ ] and you’re i have a feeling that this i was not you heard the last podcast i was the i was the hater of the two of of big clout my opinion is likely changed as of now because of how you know sean’s like this uh my good friend neville is like this you’re incredibly emotionally stable and because of that i actually think that that could make uh this business incredibly successful well i mean i appreciate it man i mean yeah i mean i think that uh yeah i mean i think it’s just really important to keep perspective right you know i mean and also like you know sam just to emphasize you know i’m really lucky so it’s not like it’s a lot easier for me to be emotionally stable i feel than like someone who’s actually had it pretty hard you know and i think genetic yeah i think it’s genetic and i think it’s upbringing i think if you’re if you’re surrounded by love when you’re when you’re growing up and for some genetic stuff you’re just going to be like pretty stable it’s i just like now i understand now i want to buy your coin on big cloud oh nice oh i’m i that is like the biggest compliment you can give me this entire podcast i actually own some sean already but i i don’t know sam if i found what’s your handle on on uh on diamond or that’s uh so i don’t know if you made it i haven’t logged in i have it like we’ll find it after this yeah yeah i think you’ve converted me now i like i said i i don’t think i was completely a complete hater but of the two i was the the more of the hater for sure sean was like i i probably made fun of sean cause he was like this is the greatest thing ever uh and and and we’ll see who’s right but i i i you convinced me well i i think i i kind of i don’t know if i fully said this the first time but basically i think that whoever can can break through and create a decentralized social network no social network will that’ll be one of the most important changes in the world over the next 20 years like self-driving cars i think is going to save a bunch of lives i think ai is going to introduce a lot of like productivity gains and like you know kind of cause some labor like changes in the way that labor works and i think that whoever can take social networking and make it an open uh do it the crypto way with the crypto values i think that that person or that group of people is going to have done a lot of great in the world and i think it’s going to be a huge project i think it is going to be a multi-trillion dollar project when it whenever it works and i think i said this early on which is i don’t i’m not saying that this one will work i think there’s still probably a sub five percent chance that this works and i said but if it works the payoff is huge so i that’s the type of bet you make in the tech world low probability high payoff and when you when you go at it with an enthusiasm you’re gonna learn about it and you’re gonna go for that ride with a bunch of early adopters and even if it crashes and it doesn’t end up working out we’re gonna all have learned a bunch of lessons so that when the right one does come around you say ah that one makes sense this solves the problems of the last one or this feels different and so i know that this is the real one but you never know unless you go in with you know sort of a belief mentality towards these things because it’s easy to just say this is not going to work and you’ll be right on 99 out of 100 times it’s just that the one that 100 matters you’ll have also said it’s never going to work and you wrote it off and therefore you didn’t benefit from it in any way that’s like you know optimism pays in the tech world and so even though i got a lot of [ ] you got 10 000 times more [ ] for for doing the project um i just feel like that’s such a misguided way of living and like you know again optimism is in this business so i find skepticism is useful at certain points but you know you want to default to optimism and then go in and find the things that don’t smell quite right and uh but but you know even then you’ll just have learned a bunch and gotten a bunch of experience and played with all the new things so that you know when the real one is huge and and yeah and i think it’s really awesome that you know for me you know i get to do the thing that i love in the world which is to build cool [ ] and uh and and that’s helpful to people and even though like you said like five percent you know and and you can do that and and it actually is something that uh you know at least the expected value can help but um give us give us the uh the craziest story cause i remember i was on big cloud and it’s like oh pamela anderson joins and she’s a huge fan and then like i don’t know whoever it was all kinds of crazy characters you know that were joining this thing i was like i haven’t thought about pamela anderson in like 20 years uh this is amazing and she’s like you know good creating all these incentives for her coin holders you on the inside every day you must have just been seeing all the random stuff and getting threats from one side and praise from these random people give us a give us a war story or a crazy story that like is just kind of fun uh that that yeah totally um yeah i mean what’s interesting is that it did attract a lot of like pretty famous people to like join or create profiles you know i think like diplo and blau tyga antonio brown are still like posting there and stuff uh but um i think probably the craziest story is uh at some point i went to a dinner uh in l.a i don’t know if i’m like even allowed to say but there were like a lot of famous people there and i got to kind of like tell them about it uh give cat give how do i even uh there were billionaire tech ceos and then also uh the biggest celebrity like someone’s name who sean mentioned earlier uh who was a clotted closet organizer okay uh all of them yeah and so i think um yeah just being able to kind of explain our vision to all these people was really awesome uh and uh and yeah and i think what’s cool is like you know when you really get to explain it everyone gets excited about it even even in spite of kind of all the initial like oh you can’t cash out or like this and that like when you’re like hey like this is what it is um it’s inspiring and like you said sean uh if we can actually use these features these new kind of like money features like the coins like the nfts like the diamonds all that stuff to decentralize social media it’s going to do a lot of good you know um independent of the fact that they make creators more money and align with fans a high schooler in virginia that you’d be a crypto nerd hanging out in l.a at a mansion dinner with kim kardashian i mean what’s funny about it is uh i was really into bitcoin in college in like 2013. uh so i built a minor i met mark carpalas as the ceo of mount gox uh my friend and i like went to japan and randomly tweeted him and he was like come by our office i met him so i was really into like bitcoin and crypto uh and you know when bitcoin crashed i was like okay i guess i’m gonna go do my hedge fund thing or whatever uh but it’s funny i think if you told like college natter that like this is what he’d be doing i think he’d be like yeah that’s awesome you know that’s that’s cool that’s about right the kim kardashian part like you know maybe not no i mean yeah i’m gonna it’s like i’m asking you stock tips i’m on big cloud uh i’m on the site now what uh and i could see this i mean i could just go and find it but what what creators do you own and what what uh what which one are you gonna be making any purchases anytime soon what do you like yeah definitely i own active creators so if a creator is active and like posting and like doing fun stuff or interesting stuff i buy them um but really the thing that i uh you know like the hedge fund side of me really likes is nft artists because for nft artists uh even today not theoretical um all of them set royalties that go to their coins um and so there’s real cash flows there that are often like totally disparate like you know like their coins are not like correctly priced for like how much money is gonna actually flow to their coins um and so i’ve been yeah i bought like spookies and um uh clout punk you know early illuminati is like another one um and those like just the cash flows are like above what it was when i like you know those have made up for what it was when i invested in it so uh so that’s kind of like i think that’s a strategy that like just traditional like i do like i get it um and then as we create more cash flows going to the coins there’ll be even more um but aside from that because i know that you know creators who could get big are going to have ways that cash flows go to the coins the smaller creators who i think are active and are like gonna do cool [ ] anyone in particular you know that’s who you enjoy that’s like the other one um oh there are a bunch um well so darmesh has been crushing it he’s not a smaller creator uh but he’s just been super active he’s been doing a lot of stuff creating time right now yeah yeah yeah he’s he’s he’s very big on the platform um i’m trying to see like there’s like matreshka who’s a woman who’s very active there and does a lot of stuff tidgeon is this developer who does a lot of awesome stuff um yeah it’s aditya you want to know my strategy that that worked on big clout at least early on this worked pretty well i i was thinking about okay who do i buy do i buy the famous people that are not on yet there’s people building scrapers to try to figure out someone’s thinking about it or they tweeted it out and it hasn’t gotten verified yet so go front run that i figured out there’s a very simple way to win and i said right now with any early project i’ve built a bunch of social networks and i know anytime you build a social network at first 70 of the conversation on that social network is about the social network this happened with the stuff i built it happens if you go to clubhouse eighty percent of the rooms are just end up they will end up talking about how great clubhouse is or what it’s gonna be or what’s bad about it they’re just always talking about the platform itself so i knew okay if people are gonna be interested in the platform itself i invested in all of the analysts who could who could go through the on-chain data and report how what prices were working you know how many how many new users there were and all that good stuff and so i bought all the analysts dirt cheap and they went up like crazy because again they were talking about the platform in a way that was differentiated because the normal person didn’t know how to go analyze the blockchain and then the other one was basically rich active people so i saw darmesh was just gonna buy his own coin and whale shark was just gonna buy his own coin craig clemons was gonna buy his own coin and so it’s like a company that does a share buyback it’s like oh okay this person has the they have enough funds where they could like dramatically move their own coin price so all i got to do is just buy them and wait for them to do their buybacks and sure enough they did and dartmouth even said it publicly it’s like i’m gonna buy for every follower i get i’m gonna buy back my every every coin holder i get i’m gonna buy back 10x of my own coin or something crazy like that and i was like well that’s a ponzi scheme that i love that’s perfect great uh like i’ll just hitch onto that ride this guy’s guaranteeing and i know he’s a man of his word he’s gonna buy he’s gonna buy back his own stuff and i could just front run that so that worked amazingly at the beginning i don’t know if that would still work now the strategy of forecasting what content is gonna be popular and then investing in the people who are producing it i mean that’s like that’s like the name of the game i think um so i think that’s pretty awesome uh yeah like there was a guy who would do uh fake designs like mock-ups like oh this is what the client could look like yeah oh if they add it in it’s how it it’s just like kind of like design porn yeah design porn i was like oh that’s going to work people are again it’s talking about the platform and in a differentiated way because this guy’s a designer and he’s going to just design mockups all the time this is going to go viral great yeah no that’s genius honestly um yeah and it’ll be interesting to see how it works at scale um especially because diamond app is like so mainstream and i think can actually get like some bigger people to like join and start using it um yeah i honestly i wonder how it’s gonna play out um by the way another fun thing we didn’t talk about is there’s actually an algorithmic feed that’s like open source now built into the blockchain so that would probably play into your strategy where you can look at how the feed works and then try and figure out what what’s gonna get to the top it’s pretty hard to game i think but uh but that’s that’s another like interesting have you talked to their master so for the people saying dartmesh is one of the co-founders of hubspot as of today he’s probably worth just off hubspot stock it’s public you can go and look probably like a billion and a half so very very very successful he was part of big clout very early i mean he was telling us very early on that he was buying a lot and he’s he wasn’t an angel investor but he was an early investor in coinbase he was an early investor in crypto he obviously has hubspot wildly successful and he’s like this is my thing so have you have you hung out with him he that guy is interesting as hell well what’s crazy is i think i met darmesh like pretty late in the game i had like a pretty short call with him where i just kind of we just talked about you know life what the thing is and what bitcloud and diesel is and all that stuff um so what’s funny is i think darmesh just like really independently kind of saw whoa you know like you know if like you said sean you know in the five percent where it works or whatever like this is huge uh and um so what’s funny yeah i i’ve had a very short conversation with him i’d love to to hang out with him more but uh you know he’s busy and uh obviously we have lots of business i honestly think you know he does post a lot i think 99 of people they’ll say they’re not doing it for the money and then they totally are he’s like the one person i believe that is not actually doing it for the money so i i genuinely believe he’s doing it because he’s like i want this to win and in order for this to win we need like economic activity we need like positive energy in the system so i’m gonna literally like almost in a philanthropic way put a bunch of money in to just like get kick-start this because it’s gonna take some enough people doing that because like i said right now it’s small it’s really small and like that you know there’s the with crypto there’s these hype cycles at the beginning but there’s a vicious other side which is that if it doesn’t just keep magically going up people get disillusioned for a bit and then it has to get another thing that like picks it up and so um i think he was genuinely just trying to you know kickstart activity and enthusiasm totally and i mean another thing to your point sean uh i i have you know good news to you for you like with regard to if we can do like a social media you know decentralized social it’s going to be really awesome which is that um i actually think i won’t say the word it’s inevitable but i think it’s actually very asymmetric like in favor of decentralized platforms actually winning um the main reason being that i think when all the content is open and anyone can build on it i think that the speed of iteration that you can have and the like caliber of product is just a lot higher um so you know just like you know on that five percent you know it’s like if you know for example just because all the content is open right we can have like all this over 100 teams that like we didn’t even hire just go out there and build way better apps than we were capable of building internally but then it’s even bigger which is like you get like once you get a little bit bigger you know let’s see if like a million users now you have like traditional publishers basically looking at the open content being like hey like with one engineer we could spin up like a sp a feed like espn or something can spin up a sports feed for sports influencers right and be like hey like this is cheap like we should do this and get into the social game and make marginal money um and then you know in other countries this is i think something that darmesh really likes uh you know for example in a country like india or russia or something like that uh today they use twitter a lot they use they use basically apps built predominantly by people in silicon valley uh and the reason is that you know silicon valley has a monopoly on the content and you know they because they have that you have to use their apps but when all the content is open you can actually have people in the native country build the apps that you use and tailor it to their uh to their user base um you can read stories about how facebook was just horrible in japan for a really long time and like nobody you know they had to make all these optimizations that were like kludgy uh to to you know they were just leaving on the ground like no one was doing them because they’re centralized kind of centrally planned organization so i think once you have a blockchain that can actually handle posts and data which hasn’t really has not existed until do so um i i think it just kind of opens the floodgates for this like number of innovators and an amount of energy that wants to build that it just has to beat your essential plan model like i just don’t you’ve got to get the power i know that like i i it always works this way you make a big splash um and then there’s like either down it goes down or it plateaus and then it needs to go up right now you guys had that massive splash it went away for a minute because as it does everything novelty always goes it goes away and then you got you’re gonna have your comeback up and so i hope that you could pull this off and you have to make it so like i want to go there and all of us want to go there on a consistent basis because if you can’t pull that off you’re not dick and i want you to kick ass totally and i have a funny story for you actually uh so i think on that the crypto side of things helps us a lot uh because crypto it’s really hard to kill something that’s crypto i’ve i’ve learned uh and so just to give you an example uh cryptokitties was this nft project that got really really big and then died or whatever right and what’s funny is during the cryptokitties hype i gave a talk about my project different it’s like a stable coin uh but the co-founder of openc xander tala was at the talk he came he came up to me after and was like hey man like you know i’m thinking you know i like this like nft thing we’re gonna make a marketplace for things like cryptokitties and i was like dude really you know like what are you doing with your life this nfts are dumb that was like that’s never gonna you know happen again but you know crypto has a way of like when there’s a really interesting concept which i think nfts were right uh it kind of plays dead for a while and then people realize it it comes back it gets down and that’s that’s happening you know look many things yeah absolutely um and so uh you know so from my standpoint obviously we’re doing a lot of fun stuff we have actually just today we rolled out a referral program that any one of the apps can use uh you know where if you someone can share your link they get 25 you get like five dollars or something uh and so you know that’s the first money we’ve invested in growing the user base uh and i think that’s gonna do well but i really think a big part of it is you know when you have a really good concept which i think creator coins alone are interesting not to even mention like diamonds and stuff uh sometimes just take some time for the market to figure it out uh but yeah i think the initial hype kind of to me showed me okay this is this is something that you know once people maybe get a little bit bored of nfts they’re going to look at the next thing and this is just going to be waiting you know so i don’t know obviously not it’s all five whatever the five percent like sean said i love that but uh that’s my you know that’s kind of my view on that’s awesome man well listen i appreciate you coming on i think you did great and i think that for people who uh who like trying new stuff they should go check it out so what’s the best starting point for them now so is it is it big clout still or yeah well in six months it might change but right now diamond app.com is awesome uh it you know the developers basically wanted to make it a 10x of bitcloud and i think they achieved it um so that’s great uh and then if you like nfts specifically polygram.cc is a really awesome place to browse the nfts if you if you’re into that uh it’s just a great great way to look at them but yeah man thanks for having me i mean this is incredible like you guys i like i said i’m i’m a little bit like afraid of how well you explained it and how much better it was than me but um yeah i got to work on that i guess just send people like this like a clip or something we have uh jonathan on the length it’s okay when you were in college when you were in college like mining bitcoin i was just uh you know sitting there trying to i have no skill so i’m just sitting there trying to convince people to buy you know like random like objects in my room and so you know you get good at what you get good at you got good at something that was extremely valuable yeah it’s something i got good at this other thing like explaining more for you i just i know i know i i know like this man this crazy bet that i’m making on you but something tells me you’re gonna be okay all right dude i mean look the the upside of all this is that if diesel works it helps a lot of people man and honestly not even diesel if anyone figures out decentralized social and if we helped in that like really like my my mentality is if we instigated something really good we’ve done a good thing for the world and i sleep very well at night knowing that no matter what happens like pushing this forward you know uh is has helped you know well let me ask you one one other thing i’ve always wondered which is you had all these big people invest in buying buying the currency before you guys launched and then you launched and they didn’t all use it like where are they what’s up with that did you hit them up and you’re like hey brother it would be nice if you’re the number one or two person on the network you own the coin you invest in this before we launched can you go like you know use the thing like or did you not pull that card what’s up with that that must have no no that’s actually mostly me uh so we have a lot of people who are like really big names not just in vc but also like in hollywood and all that stuff who who bought diesel um and they asked me like natter like is now the time like to really like bring this in and like do it uh and i just didn’t feel like bitcoin was quite there yet uh now uh with diamond and polygram i mean i think now you know i i think it’s a bit different but it was mostly me kind of because i don’t want them to join bring all their users and then people are kind of like this isn’t good enough this looks weird and we lose like half of them right out the gate right so you know like like i said we’re playing the long game here um so the longer we wait to really bring in the big people and tell them hey now is the time uh i think the better it’s going to be and the more users will have so uh but we’re we’re there i think with diamond uh so you’ll probably start seeing uh some of the bigger people using it and well thanks for uh doing this we’re like yeah our schedule got all screwed up sean was late because his house is flooding and we were we were tinkering with the timing and you overstayed with us and we really appreciate that so you’ve been very generous with your time this is badass man awesome yeah this was fun good to meet you where should people uh find follow you what’s your so are you still under diamond hands are yeah at natter now uh you can follow diamond hands and natter diamond hands is gonna still gonna do some fun stuff but uh natter is where i post from yeah awesome all right all right thank you so much for coming incredible just incredible [Music] you