Sam and Shaan open with Sam’s spontaneous New York meetup that got 1,000 RSVPs, then dive into Shaan’s LA sports-tech event where founders of Relativity Space, Carta, and a telehealth company broke down what it actually takes to build a billion-dollar company. They also discuss the NELK Boys’ business model, the Martin Shkreli interview, the skill of connecting with people (featuring Ben Levy’s “trust magnet” superpower), and the idea of doing memorable things as a long-game career asset.
Speakers: Sam Parr (host), Shaan Puri (host)
The Hospital Software Guy’s Sales-Backwards Framework [00:00:00]
Shaan: The hospital software guy — here’s what he said. You’ll like this. His was simpler. He said, “Yeah, I agree with all that stuff. Here’s how we thought about it: we need 500 salespeople that can sell half a million dollars a year, or 250 that can sell a million dollars as their sales quota per year. So we just work backwards from that. What features, products, and people do we need to let a salesperson hit that number? First, is that even possible? Can this market support it? Yes — the market is very big. Hospitals spend a lot of money in healthcare, and in our category they spend much more than that.”
Sam’s Surprise New York Meetup [00:01:00]
Sam: All right. So look — you said, Shaan, that you didn’t want to do an event because you didn’t want to travel. I decided to host one anyway. It’s just a meetup. Did you see the link I posted? The Eventbrite thing?
Shaan: Yeah, you posted an event in New York — just you and a bunch of tech friends?
Sam: No, just me and Sahil. I was like, I want to get out of the house, I want to do something. You said no. And dude, a thousand people have RSVP’d, and I have no idea where we’re going to host it. I have no idea what we’re going to do.
Shaan: It sounded like you had a plan. You were like, “We’re moving it to this other place.”
Sam: Some guy DM’d me on Twitter and said, “I’ll help you find a venue,” and I said great, you’re in charge. I don’t know his name. Cool, you’re it. Then I got Nick Gray — the small party guy — to come. I was like, “Dude, just come and organize this, and you can sell books there.” But I don’t know what I’m going to do. Would it be lame to just stand around and say hi?
Shaan: Yeah, kind of lame.
Sam: What the hell am I supposed to do, juggle?
Shaan: You should have thought of that before you posted it, bro. We did the live pod thing in Austin and Miami, and honestly I don’t think it was very good. Listening to a podcast live is not that entertaining unless it’s like a planned comedy bit — like we had something scripted. That’s what comedians do, right? It’s scripted but they also kind of flow.
Sam: Or you’re just so big that people like simply seeing you live is entertaining. I don’t think we’re there yet. I went to a Tim Ferriss live thing once — it was just him sitting in a chair doing a fireside chat. I’ve seen the Pod Save America guys do live shows and people geek out about meeting them and seeing them. I don’t think we’re there yet.
I’m a big energy guy. My idea of a good time is where the energy is steady and rising. My idea of a bad time is an energy dip — the same way people feel about awkward silences in conversation, I feel about energy dips. And that’s what happens when you do “hey, we’re two dudes from Twitter, let’s talk in front of you.” It’s kind of lame, isn’t it?
Shaan: Well, “come say hi” is not that helpful, I agree.
Sam: I don’t know what to do. I have these people coming. Here’s what I think is going to happen: I think they’re not actually coming to see me. I’m just the excuse for all these Twitter dorks to see one another.
Shaan’s Idea for a Better Event Format [00:05:00]
Shaan: I have an idea that I think would be dope — you could use it for this, or we could use it for something else. I went to this event in LA that my buddy Romin threw. It was a conference, but the day before there was this dinner. It was at an NBA team owner’s home, on a rooftop looking at the beach. But even if it wasn’t that baller of a setting, this still would have been awesome.
Basically, the table was full of — there were two tables, and each table had one really famous person, then two kind of famous people, and then the rest were interesting but not famous.
Sam: Which one were you?
Shaan: I was the “just interesting” person.
Sam: Got it. I just want to understand the level of fame we’re talking about.
Shaan: I’m talking about real fame — professional athlete, actor level. Which actors were there? I can’t say names. It was actually an athlete event. Former A-list, let’s say former B-list. Like — you’re not on the cover of the video game, but I know your name, I’ve seen you play, I have memories of you playing. Not a bench warmer.
Anyway, my point is — these dinner tables, whether you’re playing poker or eating food, just a round table of eight people where the expectation is: we’re all here to get to know each other. And you rotate.
I think we could do one of those for the MFM community. Take 10 or 15 of the most impressive guests — Andrew Wilkinson has his table, you have your table, I have my table, Steph Smith has her table, Ben has his table. We get our well-known guests — Rob Dyrdek, we get whoever — and then the rest of the guest list is: you are interesting but not necessarily famous. Maybe you have a really interesting business, or you’re really knowledgeable about some domain. And they’re all fans.
We set up these tables — whether it’s food or poker, there’s some activity — and you get to rotate between three or four tables with random draws. I think people have more fun participating than sitting and watching other people talk. That’s my guess for an MFM event.
Sam: Bro, that’s cool. But I have a thousand people coming. Can we have ten people at a hundred tables? That’s a lot.
Shaan: You don’t have to let all thousand in. That was an interest list, not a confirmed guest list.
Sam: I don’t know — I made this on the toilet. I tweeted it out and it worked.
Shaan: Here’s what I think you should do. Do something the Sam way — you’re like, “All right, everybody, we’re meeting in this junkyard, we’re going to look for cool scraps.” That’ll filter out who you want to hang out with. It’ll be a no-headache event. And then separately, host a cool event that’s well-planned and people just have to show up.
NELK Boys / Full Send Business Model [00:11:00]
Sam: Can I talk to you about one thing really quick? Have you listened to the Full Send podcast?
Shaan: Not regularly, but I’ve seen clips — when they had Dana White or Mark Cuban. I don’t exactly understand what Full Send is, but I know they’re incredibly popular.
Sam: Can I explain what it is roughly? The group is the NELK Boys — that’s the main name. Full Send is their brand and one of their podcasts. These guys are basically what Jackass was when we were growing up. Jackass was guys doing stunts, pranks, punching each other’s balls — basically a group willing to go all out for your entertainment and their own amusement. The NELK Boys are like that. They make YouTube videos, they got big on YouTube, and they have a bunch of brands.
One brand is basically the equivalent of Girls Gone Wild — it’s a paid membership club. I didn’t know about that. They also have merch drops. They’ll do two or three million dollars in sales in five minutes when they drop. The New York Times said last year they did about 80 million in revenue — 50 million of that in merchandise. And they’re on track to do 70-plus million the next year. Plus Happy Dad, their beer or hard seltzer — that’s everywhere on Instagram.
Then if you go to one of these guys’ channels — his name is Steve — this is the point where I realized I’m out of touch. He’s just giving away a million dollars in every video. Literally the Mr. Beast playbook, but he’s giving too much. He gave a guy a $100,000 watch. He gave this family two million dollars. He gave Dana White a $400,000 van. In one video they gave a guy $250,000 cash for his birthday. In another they’re giving $200,000 to a family in need.
And he’s doing these multiple times a month. These guys are going to run out of money. I have no idea how they give this much away — unless the money comes in one door and they reinvest it in this, because they know it generates huge views.
Shaan: I don’t think these guys have sponsors.
Sam: Well they must somewhere. The model must be: the money comes in one door, they reinvest it in giveaways because they know it’s a good formula. He’s got a video — him standing in front of Home Depot with three guys — “I’m gonna give this family in the hood a hundred thousand dollars.” That’s their second most recent video and it has 2.7 million views. So clearly that works. Though they got banned, they can’t monetize their videos because it’s explicit. So I don’t know how it’s sustainable. Maybe it’s not.
The Mr. Beast Symbiotic Sponsor Model [00:19:00]
Shaan: You know, I remember when Mr. Beast was doing something similar — going to a Twitch stream with two viewers and dropping $20K in a donation and the person would freak out, and that clip would go viral. Did you see those? Do you know how he was actually doing it?
Sam: I know they exist. I don’t know the full story. But I remember meeting one guy who worked at a site called Quiv — I think that was the name — and basically Quiv was these little collectible stickers and cards aimed at a teenage audience. They went to Mr. Beast and said, “Hey, we’ll pay you $50,000 for a sponsored video.” And the genius of Mr. Beast was: “Cool, but here’s what we’re going to do. That’s not you paying me for a shoutout midway through a video. Let’s make the video about using $50,000 in an interesting way.”
So he’d do videos like: “I’m gonna go to this coffee shop and tip the barista $15,000. Let’s see her reaction.” He’d go, tip her, she’d have this crazy reaction, he’d say “Thanks so much to our guys at Quiv who made this possible.” That video would get five or ten million views. So for Quiv, it was like, “Dude, we’re getting way more bang for our buck than any other influencer shoutout we’re doing.” Then they’d up the ante — $50K, $100K, $200K — because each video was getting ten million views.
What do they call it in biology where the parasite actually helps you? It was basically a symbiotic relationship. The brand was putting up loads of cash, he was using that cash to create huge amounts of views and subscribers and become the biggest YouTuber.
Shaan: I don’t think these guys have that. Well, they must have it somewhere, right?
Sam: Look, I don’t know. Maybe it’s not sustainable. Something is crazy. I don’t think I’m the wrong one when I predict they’re going to go broke.
Shaan: I could also see these things being money printers. Like, the Jackass franchise ultimately was successful. You see a guy in a thong kicking someone in the balls and you’re like, “Well, this doesn’t seem like good business.” But in actuality, as long as they have their Kris Jenner in the background going full send, this is what drives ratings, then it works.
The New York Times headline about them was “What Won’t the NELK Boys Do?” — that is a brand. A really powerful, valuable brand. The question isn’t what they do, it’s what they won’t do.
Sam: Would they come on the pod? I want to hear their business.
Shaan: I heard one of their managers asked to come on. Maybe we can make that happen.
Rich People Going Broke and Spiritual Journeys [00:24:00]
Sam: I heard a story about someone I know who made $60 million a handful of years ago and is now living out of their car. I learned that this weekend.
Shaan: Dude, that’s not even crazy — that’s normal. Jack Dorsey starts two multi-billion dollar companies and then actively tries to dress like a homeless guy. That’s what you do when you get rich: you go on a journey to find the meaning of life.
I was telling somebody this the other day — we were reminiscing, like, “Remember when we were advising that kid on his company and we were both like, ‘Yeah, this is never going to work’?” And then his company is currently a multi-billion dollar company. That motherf***er is 25 years old now, running around with a huge beard trying to figure out the meaning of life. That is the classic tech cliché — you make all this money so you can live like somebody who has no money.
Elon and Sergey Brin Drama [00:26:00]
Sam: That’s the new cliché. Okay, I hate talking about these guys, but Elon — the Wall Street Journal came out yesterday saying Elon Musk slept with Sergey Brin’s wife. And Sergey Brin and Elon aren’t friends at all now.
Shaan: Yeah.
Sam: Elon tweeted two things that were hilarious. One: “This isn’t true — I haven’t had sex in months.” And then the next thing he tweeted was: “Here’s me and Sergey hanging out right now on a boat” — them drinking wine together, partying.
Shaan: Did he post a picture?
Sam: Either he did or someone did and he replied to it, like, “Yeah, that was us literally yesterday.”
Shaan: That’s so funny.
Sam: Here’s how I was feeling about it. I saw the scoop break — Wall Street Journal exclusive, Elon Musk sleeping with whatever. I was like, “Okay, that’s kind of interesting I guess.” And then I was like, “Well, pretty sad that that’s the Wall Street Journal’s thing.” But if I had the story, I’d publish it too.
Then he tweets “not true” and “haven’t had sex in months.” And I was like, ah, another sad thing. First the Wall Street Journal disappointed me, then Elon Musk disappointed me. Dude, that was like my MSN away message in middle school — “I wonder what a kiss feels like.” Some cry for attention.
But then I was like: did the Wall Street Journal just make that up? Because that’s even lamer. It was just a lame sandwich.
Shaan: I enjoyed this drama. I don’t care about the cars or the solar stuff. I just like this kind of thing.
Sam: Somebody had this great tweet: “Elon Musk is on some pirate s*** — he’s taking over companies like Twitter, trying to conquer new lands like Mars, sleeping with his friend’s girlfriends. He’s on that pirate s***.” And I was like, yeah. Cool if true. But sounds like maybe this one isn’t actually true.
Shaan’s LA Sports-Tech Conference [00:30:00]
Shaan: All right, let me tell you some things about this event. These are going to be rapid-fire little nuggets. You can either say “that’s stupid” and I’ll move on, “that’s cool, I have nothing to add” and I’ll move on, or we could actually dig into any of them.
So I went to this event in LA. My buddy Romin — we run our fund together — hosts it. It’s basically athletes and big-shot investors. Three or four owners of sports teams, so basically billionaires or legacy billionaire families. How did he get these people? He just called, reached out. Nobody’s getting paid, it’s a free event. Then there are pro athletes — mostly retired, some active. Some guys from the Lakers, some guys from other teams. Younger guys on to the next phase, doing content, media brands, real estate. And the idea was: get together 50 people from the world of sports and 50 from tech and business, and see what happens.
I went last year, I went this year again, and I have a couple of stories.
Lessons From Billion-Dollar Founders Panel [00:32:00]
Shaan: There was one talk that was actually good. That’s a knock on myself too — I hosted a panel that I didn’t think was very good. But the one good talk was “Lessons From Billion-Dollar Founders.”
Onstage was the CEO of Carta — they do cap table management, multi-billion dollar company. Someone from a mental health telehealth company — like a BetterHelp competitor in that telemedicine space. Then the hospital software guy from the intro. And then the most interesting one: Relativity Space.
By the way, you can almost always tell — you wouldn’t say the most interesting person at a conference is always the one dressed differently, but somebody who’s dressed very differently is almost always very interesting. Last year I told you I saw this kid who looked like a break dancer in a tie-dye shirt with a black stud earring — totally different from every suit in the room — and it was the founder of Bolt, who became a lot more famous later after his Twitter tirades. I met him there and invested in his company because I was like, “This dude is just really interesting.”
Same thing happened again. This guy is the founder of Relativity Space. His two competitors are Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk. No big deal. Tim Ellis — and he’s 32.
Tim Ellis and Relativity Space [00:35:00]
Shaan: So what does Relativity Space do? They 3D print rockets and send them into space.
There’s surging demand for rocketry — the ability to take satellites up to space, to do scientific missions. SpaceX is number one, Blue Origin is number two, Relativity Space is number three. Their differentiator: those other companies build rockets with hundreds of specialty parts, they might 3D print individual parts but the whole thing is an expensive, complex structure. These guys basically 3D print the entire rocket with only a handful of extra parts. Because of that, they’re cheaper.
He says this throwaway line: “Our mission is to make humanity multiplanetary through 3D printing. We’re one of only two companies on Earth with that mission. The other is SpaceX. The launch market today is eight billion a year and growing to thirty billion. There are really only three companies that can serve this right now. In the last three months we have sold over 1.2 billion in launch contracts.”
I was like, what?
He started the company at 25. Used to work at Blue Origin as an intern, was trying to do 3D printing there — they were like, “Nice R&D, but not our main approach.” So he left and started his own thing.
He’s got 850 employees. 500 are ex-SpaceX. I thought that was the funniest thing anybody could say. What an absurd statement.
And he’s like: “We now have a launch site. There are only four launch sites in the country. None have been built since 1960. We have exclusive rights to one for the next 25 years.”
Sam: Damn.
Shaan: And in this talk he’s explaining: what makes a company worth so much? He’s like, we hopped into an emerging wave. There’s surging demand for satellite missions in space, not enough supply, not much competition. Everybody’s sort of scared away. The defensibility — the launch site — nothing like that built in 60 years, and we have one. That’s the context for the billion-dollar lessons talk.
Sam: How lame must you feel if you’re the software guy following this dude?
The Four Billion-Dollar Frameworks [00:41:00]
Shaan: So each of the four guys gave their framework. Let me run through them.
The hospital software guy: “We need 500 salespeople that can sell half a million a year. We work backwards from that. Everything — features, products, people — is in service of getting salespeople to hit quota. And all of our product team knows: they work for sales. Silicon Valley loves to preach that product is king. We build great product if it’s going to help us sell better. We build great customer support so it helps us sell better. Everything is in service of sales.”
Sam: I like that. Simple.
Shaan: The telehealth guy: “You need to find a multi-billion dollar wave.” His wave was that mental health coverage was now required — insurance companies and employers had to include it in healthcare packages. Second, mental health is getting de-stigmatized. Famous people talking about it openly. He called these “inflections.”
There are regulatory inflections — now you can do telemedicine legally. Cultural inflections — it’s not weird to be on camera anymore. Technological inflections — everybody has a smartphone with a camera and internet. And then the pandemic was another inflection — it forced everybody to try a video doctor visit for two years. Now hospitals know they need telemedicine, doctors are willing to do it, and patients have tried it.
Sam: That’s exactly right.
Shaan: The Carta guy: “Billion-dollar companies are almost never bootstrapped. You kind of have to know that going in. If you’re going to build a billion-dollar company, you’re almost certainly going to raise money — because you’re going to hire A-plus players who need an A-plus mission. And you need a high-velocity customer acquisition model.”
I just thought that phrase was great. High-velocity customer acquisition model. You can ask yourself: do I have one? At what rate are we currently adding customers? How high would that rate need to be to get where we want to go? And what are we going to do to make this wheel spin faster?
Sam: Those are good. Those are four good things.
Reading the Room: How the Founders Looked [00:48:00]
Shaan: Were they tired and exhausted-looking? Do you think they’re happy?
Sam: Let’s hear it.
Shaan: The mental health guy — honestly, not tired, and happy. He was fit, he didn’t have crazy bags under his eyes, he spoke with energy, he was sitting upright. That checks out.
The Carta guy — he looked calm. He didn’t look like he was facing death, but he looked like he had been facing death for an extended period. Hunched over a little. Not in bad shape at all, but not exactly springing around with energy.
The space guy — that guy looked like he just walked out of a room. You know those scenes in Game of Thrones where someone gets up from bed, scrambles, and is like, “Okay, let me do my next thing”? He had the swagger of a Tyrion Lannister who was just sleeping with four beautiful women. And then he’s like, “Yeah, a billion in sales in the last three months, 500 ex-SpaceX employees.” He seemed happy. Really happy.
Sam: I was sitting with him at lunch and he was asking questions to everybody else — and that was one of the coolest parts of the event. Nobody had an ego. I don’t know if they filtered people out or everybody just got the vibe: everybody here is equally valuable. Be curious about others. You’re not just the star.
And these guys are used to being the star. The guy on my panel had a $90 million contract — one of the highest-paid NFL players. And the guy was like, “Dude, I’m just here to learn. I’d love to subscribe to your newsletter.” I’m like, wow. You are going to go so far in life because you are obviously skilled and successful but you’re so humble.
Shaan: How many people were there?
Sam: About 100, 120 maybe. Romin organized it, along with Tribe — the VC fund — and TPG, one of the biggest private equity firms in the world.
Shaan: Why is TPG working with you?
Sam: I always carry that Tyrion dinosaur energy regardless of what my situation is.
Shaan: Holy crap.
Ben Levy’s Trust Magnet Superpower [00:54:00]
Sam: All right, I’m going to give you a couple other things I took away. Ben Levy — who’s not producer Ben, my business partner Ben — has a superpower that we talk about. People just tell him things. He just smiles and laughs, and then if he needs to, he uses it. He’s a trust magnet. Everyone trusts him.
Me and you — I’ve known you eight years, we’ve spent time together, we’ve gone through ups and downs, we know each other. You may have met Ben twice in your life. But even you will text Ben like, “Dude, my new business is doing awesome.” He just has that pull. Everybody wants to talk to Ben, everybody wants to tell him things. He’s so enthusiastic.
So I’m going to tell you a little story, and I don’t know how much we can take away from it. I just want to share it because I think it was amazing — and because if there’s a way to learn this skill, everybody should learn it. I’m trying to learn it myself.
We go to this event. We split up — we don’t just sit together the whole time, because that defeats the purpose. I get a text from Ben. Ben’s sitting across the room. He’s like, “Yo, the dude next to you is awesome.” I go, “Who?” He says, “That’s Chris Johnson. He trains some of the best NBA players on the planet.”
I was like, okay cool. I’m a big NBA fan but I didn’t know this guy. Ben’s just deeper down the rabbit hole. So I was like, alright, if the opportunity presents itself I’ll go introduce myself.
Ben does something — I don’t know exactly what he did — but he approaches this guy and starts talking to him. I think two things happened. Number one: in a room full of guys who are usually on screen, this guy who’s clearly a heavy hitter in his space — the average person in that room didn’t know who he was. Every tech nerd in there doesn’t know who this guy is. Even people who follow sports probably didn’t know he was the skills trainer for Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, other top guys.
Ben goes up to him and says, “Dude, I follow you, man. I love your videos.” Gives him a compliment. They start talking.
I’m going to skip to the end. The event is over, everybody’s leaving. This guy comes up to me. He sees I’m figuring out my Uber. He goes, “I knew I was coming to this event for a reason, but I didn’t know why. This man was the reason.” He points at Ben.
I go, “What? What do you mean, what did he do?” He goes, “I don’t even know, man. This — I am so happy I met this guy Ben. I will always remember our conversation.” And he says, “Brother — anything you need, I got you.”
This is not the type of guy who schmoozes. When words come out of his mouth they mean something. And I just had this look on my face like, what the f*** did you do, Ben? How did you do this again?
And Ben — he’s just smiling. He doesn’t even say anything back to this guy. He’s just smiling. I go, “What happened? Why?” And the trainer goes: “I don’t even know. But you know — I’m a trainer. I work with athletes. When they need something, they call me. When they’re in a slump, they call me. When they want their next contract, they call me. I help these guys get paid. I drive to this guy’s house. I fly there. I do this. I do that. I’m always pouring into other people. Ben poured into me.”
And I was like, what just happened?
The guy says, “When are you flying out?” Ben says tomorrow. He says, “Come train with us.” Ben goes with him the next morning to his facility and does a session. The guy spends two hours correcting Ben’s form. Other NBA players are there. Ben sends me this video — he’s wearing a weighted vest, he’s got a shooting glove on because this guy invented a shooting glove. He made an experience out of it for Ben.
And I really appreciated that. This guy didn’t have to do that. You could see why this guy works with so many people — there’s something magnetic about his personality.
Shaan: Two magnets met.
Sam: And I don’t know what Ben’s superpower is, but consistently these things happen where people are just very attracted to him this way.
You know who else is good at that? Me. I’m good at that.
Shaan: You are good at that. You’re not that good, but you’re good.
The Martin Shkreli Interview and Being a Real Person vs. a Podcaster [01:04:00]
Shaan: So yesterday I did an interview with Martin Shkreli. I wanted it to go well. I’m five minutes in and I find myself doing this thing — I’m smiling, I’m laughing, I’m like, “So that must have been hard for you to…” I became some character. This generic podcast character.
The thought in my head was: Sam would never do this.
He said something — he was talking about how he got a contraband cell phone and was on the internet the whole time he was in prison. And I started with some polite follow-up. And I was like, you know what Sam would have said? He would have been like, “Wait, what? How do you get it in? Do you have to put it between your butt cheeks?” You would have genuinely reacted like a normal person rather than “That’s fascinating. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on…”
It’s the difference between being a podcaster and being a real person. So I literally switched into Sam mode. I started being like a real person. And then he shares these hilarious things. He goes, “Yeah, and you have to buy these phones for like thousands of dollars. I paid $15,000 for one phone.” I was like, why is this phone made of gold? He’s like, “You have to grease one guy, who gets another guy, who bribes five guys to get it in. You gotta pay that vig.”
And I was like, so what do you use it for exactly? He goes, “Most guys just use it for porn. But me, I’m on GitHub and Khan Academy. And porn. I did that too. But I’m also doing advanced math.”
Sam: That’s the kind of thing that comes out when you act like a real person at a party.
Shaan: Exactly. And that little magic moment — that doesn’t happen unless you’re willing to just react.
Ben’s Skill vs. Sam and Shaan’s Skill — How to Win Friends [01:08:00]
Sam: Ben just seems so curious and earnest. People like how genuinely interested he is in their life and how helpful he tries to be without seeking anything or talking about himself.
Have you read How to Win Friends and Influence People?
Shaan: I read like the first chapter — the one where your name is the most important word in the English language. I was like, yeah, this is great.
Sam: Dude, that book changed my life. There’s a chapter where a young guy is sitting with an older guy, wants something from him. The young guy just listened to him the entire time. At the end of the conversation, the older guy goes, “This was the best conversation I’ve ever had with anyone ever.” And the young guy was like, “I didn’t say a word.” The older guy says, “You should come and apply at our company.”
That changed my life. So when I want to get something from people, I usually amp them up. I’ll either insult them a little — “That’s a nice little business, what do you guys do, like $50 million?” And then they’ll tell me the exact number. Or more often I just encourage them like crazy. “Wow, you did that? You are so amazing. You’re my hero, how did you do that?” And they’ll start gushing, and I’ll just make them feel really good about themselves.
This sounds manipulative, which I guess it is. But I don’t think it’s bad manipulative.
Shaan: Yeah, it works. The way I put it — you go to these events to make connections. But it’s kind of hard. You feel uncomfortable, you’re like, “How do I quickly figure out if they’re interested in me, am I interested in them?” There’s a speed-dating component. You see their eyes start to wander. Or you find yourself tuning out because you’re quickly judging them.
But I am fascinated by the connection that Ben and this guy Chris had. The way Chris talked to me, I felt like a friend within two minutes. And it’s not because he was manipulating me — that’s just his energy.
I think about why he’s been able to connect with athletes who everybody wants to connect with. Obviously he’s got to be good at his job. But that’s not enough. He told me a story — he wants to come on the pod, by the way.
The Drew League Story — Your Victory Is in Your Vulnerability [01:14:00]
Shaan: He was talking about fear. He said: “I work with these guys in the gym. They can hit 80 or 90 percent of their shots in practice. In the game it’s obviously lower — there’s speed, there’s defense. But even free throws — no defense, no speed — guys perform one way in the gym and another in the game. It’s because there’s a massive mental component. I train their mental just as much as their physical.”
And he said: “LeBron recently decided he wanted to go play at the Drew League.” You know the Drew League?
Sam: Yeah, kind of.
Shaan: It’s in downtown LA. It’s kind of like in the hood. Usually former players or fringe guys, journeyman guys who are very good but not stars. And LeBron was thinking about dropping in.
This trainer said, “That would be awesome. That would mean a lot to the people. It’s a legacy thing.” He compared it to when Kevin Durant went to Rucker Park — dropped like 50 points, the crowd mobbed him, they ended the game because people rushed him. He hit a three from half-court basically. Just mobbed. This very memorable thing.
But the point is: LeBron has a lot to lose at something like that. He’s already one of the best players in the world, already one of the richest most famous athletes. He doesn’t need the fame, he’s not going to make money, he’s not going to get better by playing with people worse than him. And things could go wrong — he could get hurt, he could get dunked on, he could get crossed over, he could miss shots.
But he went. And it was incredible. Everybody loved it. He dropped 40 points. The clips went viral. People really respected him for it.
And then the trainer pulls out his phone and shows this iMessage thread — it’s the NBA All-Stars, one after another. He clicks on his text thread with LeBron. He said: “I told him: your victory is in your vulnerability. You felt vulnerable. That’s why this was a win for you — because you went anyway.”
He looked around the circle and said, “Remember that.” And all of us are nodding like, yes sir.
Sam: I love meeting people like this. I love hearing stories like this. I love getting these little golden nuggets you can actually use.
Shaan: You know what my takeaway is when I hear this? Damn, these guys are cool. I want to be cool. How the f*** do you be cool? Where’s that book?
Sam: I want that book too. I’m so envious when I hear people like this. Damn, they got a good stick.
Do Memorable Things [01:20:00]
Shaan: Let me tell you one other little nugget: do memorable things. I wrote this down.
What does that mean? I went to the conference last year, I went this year. In between, I’ve launched a business, the podcast has grown, blah blah blah. Guess what the number one thing people remembered me for?
Sam: E-commerce stuff?
Shaan: The Michael Jordan house thing we talked about on the podcast. That idea of buying MJ’s house — that clip had like 100,000 plus views on Twitter. People shared it with sports agents, sports media people. And they were like, “Oh, I remember you were gonna buy Michael Jordan’s house! What happened with that?”
From over a year ago. And I’m doing a bunch of other things way more seriously. That was just one brainstorm with Sam about an idea. That’s crazy.
So that was the first thing. Then while we were at the event, Ben took a call with this guy who was pitching a company. Ben goes, “You remember the Taco Bell Mexican Pizza?” I was like, kind of. He goes, “They took it off the menu and people were outraged on social media. This guy got a million people to sign the petition to bring it back — and they brought it back.”
And that was what Ben remembered. This guy had like three stories like that — and once you have three stories like that, it’s like, “I need to know this guy.”
I feel like you do that well too, Sam. The hot dog stand. The Pawn Stars pawn shop thing. You have these things that are memorable but not for the thing you actually spent years of your life building.
Sam: The problem is I’m trading on old stories. I need to do some cooler s*** now.
Shaan: I think that’s exactly it — do more memorable things, because they punch above their weight. They don’t take that long, they’re not that hard. But you’ve got to do them. I thought about walking across the country. Would take like six months, but you’d listen to audiobooks all day.
Sam: I thought about doing that too. But it’s gotta be authentic — extreme for extreme’s sake doesn’t work, because you don’t know if these things are going to pay off. You have to do it because the act of doing it is itself enough for you. Maybe I’ll hitchhike from New York to California using only Twitter.
Shaan: That would be a good bit.
Sam: I gotta figure something out. But this stupid podcast — I gotta be here twice a week to record it. It holds me back.
Shaan: That’s hilarious.
Closing: Hasaan Minhaj Mix-Up and the Fear of Meeting Famous People [01:26:00]
Shaan: You remember how you tweeted out that thing about Hasan Minhaj — the comedian? You saw someone walk by, you grabbed him thinking it was Hasan, and it wasn’t him, and it was really embarrassing?
Sam: Yeah. I’ve never actually talked to him.
Shaan: I gave him your number. He texted me — he was like, “This is funny. Give me Sam’s number.” And I sent it. So I think you’re getting dinner with him.
Sam: It’s going to be the first time I meet him. But that’s also a cool example of these cool things just happening when you take a lot of chances.
Shaan: Would you say your victory was in your vulnerability?
Sam: By sharing this embarrassing story where I look like a racist? Yeah. Yeah. Your victory was in your vulnerability, baby. And you hooked it up. I appreciate that.
Shaan: He’s a funny dude when you’re just hanging out with him.
Sam: I’m not prepared at all. I gotta go read a book. This is why I need that cool book.
Shaan: Try to be hot instead.
Sam: I can’t do that either.
Shaan: You’re closer to hot than funny.
Sam: That’s still a far. I’m average at both. I’m a six out of ten at everything. I’m just a seven at everything — almost a bridesmaid, always the seven. A jack of all trades, a master of nine. I’m just a seven. It doesn’t work.
Shaan: You’re a hard seven though.
Sam: Yeah, I’m a hard seven. All right, that’s the pod. We’ll talk to y’all later.