Episode of My First Million with Sam Parr and Shaan Puri.
Transcript
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Kind: captions Language: en [Music] okay we’re here on the fifth episode of the podcast with Nick Sharma Nick and I have been friends for about a year Nick I’m gonna tell everyone a little bit about your background you ran acquisition order you put an investor and a bunch of direct-to-consumer of businesses including Juby including house which is an alcohol company and some other ones that I was looking at on your LinkedIn profile yesterday will you tell people a little bit about like the companies that you’ve invested in yeah let’s see GD house black wolf nation bright land there honestly mostly just D to see companies that I’m like a fan of first and then fan enough to want to be involved in a deeper level and which one look are you involved in all of them on a deeper level or are you involved in all of them in like um I would say like pretty much yeah I would say I definitely work on stuff like every week for each portfolio company like I help them out in some way every week for sure okay great I mean exact look what what’s something that you did for like Judy this week for Judy well today actually pretty happy I just finished a domain migration so I ended up getting Judy dotco as a domain and I just said it like literally ten minutes ago I was like our new primary domain that was exciting yeah did you by Judy Co lucky had to buy it off somebody or it was yeah it was a five-figure Dublin give me five to five figures is to wider like ten thousand dollars or ninety nine thousand dollars which one is it’s it’s closer to ten there’s a lot of Nagar I’m pretty good at negotiating these domains so I did the same thing at him where our first offer for hint Co was like fifty and it ended up at six you guys bought him taco for 6k yeah Wow yeah so I’m just all about like especially if it’s a four-letter brand like that hit the first thing I did was get hint Co at dun Instagram hint on snapchat hint on Twitter and on Facebook and it was just great for brand and I mean you did the same thing with Native and then with Judy I’m trying to do it as much as I can you know Judy’s a little harder because it’s a person’s name yeah the hard part is that you have to like sometimes steal the like Instagram handle from a squatter I really and that’s like yeah I didn’t even know that it’s happening I just reached out to our Facebook folks and I was like hey could we get the native like yeah there you go and I’m like okay great that was a lot of media expected we actually never try do you think domain names are important like I think Instagram handle is really important I think Twitter handles yeah never did that well with Twitter but do you think domain name is because like so much of the traffic that is driving to your site now is like being searched for on Google or being found on social and totally yeah google.com yeah I don’t think it’s like as important but from a sorry is that really noisy in the background no go for it so I don’t yeah I think it’s it’s definitely important to some extent like you want a good domain I think where some brands get carried away is when they try and put a verb in front of their brand and then it gets too long like like hint is drinking calm it’s usually like food and Bev’s or like fitness related things but um yeah I mean I I like things that are just nice sort and clean and so I was really proud to get Judy calm but then like other things like for bright land I’m working on a landing page and for house like you know things like connecting them with PostScript and Alex getting them set up there but yeah it’s like it’s usually anywhere I try to be proactive about like if I see them trying to do something or do something then I just try to think like what’s something easy I can do to help them out yeah it makes a ton of sense yeah you know uh like what comes like brand names when we were trying to like you know before were native launched you know I was like okay I want to start this deodorant business what’s a good brand name for it and so went through a bunch of ideas and I was like okay I want something liked it uh now heads a nod towards natural but it doesn’t say like it isn’t like called natural and it’s then called something like deodorant club or deodorant company yeah I want to be able to sell other products and when we came up with the term native I remember a bunch of people were like this is a bad name doesn’t mean anything and a lot of Native Americans are gonna get upset yeah Native Americans getting upset happened kind of people got upset about it is that the first thing but we never tried to buy like Native calm yeah but we did have a huge issue with a trademark I think I’ve mentioned this to you before like we tried to we tried to use the native trademark and somebody else owned it yeah to like sort of we had to acquire that trademark and we bought the trademark like five days before we ended up selling the business to Proctor and Gamble like that was the desease saying wow wow wow other people other people would be like we’re not gonna we’re not gonna give you an offer for your business until you own your trademark yeah I really think what have like pngs advantages was they were like look we’re ready to move forward in the acquisition process with the contingency that you buy the mark before we close but we’re not energy do like an arm and a leg for that yeah it was yeah high six bigger price well so what’s crazy is like you know comparing that to a domain like like you had to get that cuz that’s the only way that your deal would have gone through whereas a domain you don’t necessarily need it but I’m just as you were saying that this thing popped in my head that Soylent was I think it was like drink Soylent and they bought Soylent comm off this dude who used it to like he was into some weird [ ] and he would promote some stuff on that site but they bought the domain off of them for like a 100k Wow and today I think they’ve like raised 80 million dollars so I think you’ve raised a dime I don’t know what a hundred thousand thousand dollars yeah yeah that is crazy we never look we never tried to buy native calm and our domain name was native cos calm and yeah it would be like what is the COS is it cosmetics is it companies what is it yeah it’s like I have no idea I don’t know yeah for the longest time on Twitter I never found native because it’s a native underscore cos it’s so bad yeah we tried to get Twitter to do what we had Instagram do or that’s the native job well I told you the guy who had the Instagram also has the Twitter he’s down okay I’m glad that you’ve like got to keep one of them then yeah all right we’d love to talk about like what’s going on in like that like not just the businesses that you’re invested in I know you said like Judy is sort of crushing a great time to launch beautiful branding actually can we talk a little bit more about Judy like yeah Judy sells like a disaster kit for your hounds which is like I mean it’s good timing because you know people are now staying at home and realized that disasters may happen look other people that are involved in the Judy business because you’ve told me about this I I sort of understand it but I don’t really understand all the relationships yes so Judy is interesting because of two things one it’s like a really sound business the the product is is basically a very functional product and it’s something that like provides immediate value to the consumer so it’s a very functional and necessary product which we love as immigrants ya know it makes a ton of sense look I want a disaster kit for my parents is everyone for myself as well so look you don’t need to sell me on the business any longer I am yes so the other reason that’s really interesting is because of the team that’s involved so you know the core team was probably five people it was myself it was our ops person who’s just a G with ops a head of customer service and then the two founders Josh who - ken is a former fan of Rayden then Simon Hawk who is the founder of command PR for command Entertainment Group but he also happens to be a celebrity of his own being so closely friends with Kim Kardashian and so and he’s also knows like the a-list world like the back of his hand so yeah it makes it it made a really interesting for lunch because on launch day I was learning all about a list celebrities through Judy you know there was like every every celebrity is posted a Judy from Chrissy Teigen to Martha Stewart Kim Kardashian to like literally everybody and is that just because like is that because Steve Huck I guess sort of got all these people to post about it how did that sort of happen yeah honestly Simon I think just has like he’s a very loved guy in the industry and in his in his network and I think when people saw that he was launching something that you know he developed this brand because he saw that so many of his own family members were affected by disasters yeah and so I think when they saw that he was basically launching his brand and it was a real thing they all just wanted to support like none of them it’s weird because none of the the influencer posts I’ve ever felt like ads none of them are like go buy this now it’s like it’s all congratulating Simon or just talking about how handy they’re Judy kids are yeah well that’s great like I’m trying to get that word Anika trying to get that organic like influence but reach isn’t it’s really really difficult to get down right yeah yeah they did a really good job and like Josh who’s the other founder is the president of Ramona so he he’s just a beast of an operator and so making sure like especially on things like logistics and supply chain she’s arcing marketing like he’s he’s a genius is he related to like the founder of LVMH I thought the president of Rimowa was like the guy’s son or something like Bernard no I think he’s related to them I have heard that name come up maybe maybe Josh replaced them or he like took a different role in the company yeah sure okay let’s move on to like what’s going on the direct consumer industry yeah because I feel like um you know you’re you’re in touch with a ton of different brands and they’re certainly like a perfect storm brewing right now I think there was all of a sudden people were worried about profitability and not just like top-line growth and so like when Brandis sort of shut down its operations when outdoor voices had whatever issues that it recently had people realized that bottom line really mattered and then all of a sudden like you know the stock market is collapsing and so investors are gonna be a lot more cautious when it comes to writing checks and then finally no one’s going outside because you know cope it’s cause it’s in the stock market to collapse and you know all of a sudden the pair of Nike shoes that you ordinarily wear when you were running outside don’t really seem necessarily any longer right what look would you know do you think that the bottom line mattering or a kovat is it sort of having a larger impact or is it just impossible to tell right it is kind of impossible to tell because you know we’re kind of in this like sheltered or hibernation stage right now where we haven’t like fully accepted that okay this is the reality and figured out the adjustments around that we’re all kind of in this like like I’m sure you said that New York Times article around how people are just like turning to junk food I know just from portfolio companies and chatting around that like cookware is doing really well beauty’s type of stuff isn’t doing as well like anything really related to going out but anything that promotes happiness or calmness or wellness while you’re staying in has just been crushing everything from like fitness fitness gear and jump ropes and and bands all the way to like adapt the gin drinks are crushing you know cookware I said is doing well it’s it’s kind of weird though but it will be interesting to see like when when all this stuff does settle down what how will people adjust and what will people start to realize as their priorities you know I don’t think people are going to be rushing to spend a hundred dollars to get you know face wash customized to their zip code anymore yeah like it should things things the perspective of money will definitely change yeah it’s crazy how fast that happens you know took like ten years old I feel really blessed and their wallets to feel fat and then to feel like hey I want to spend money making myself happy - all of a sudden yeah like this seems like a crazy luxury to have a customized face wash yeah right I mean if you think about like that’s literally a way right it’s like you used to have like a 5,000 you know Saks Fifth Avenue set yeah and then away kind of came in and found that like high earners but not rich yeah Henry playground the Henry playground yeah and then but I mean they just they just had to let go of like 60% of their staff the worst part of the people who get affected who you know just don’t know how they’re gonna pay rent in two months yeah I guess look um what’s a good stuff that I mean covert is obviously a complete catastrophe for the country yeah like that’s heartbreaking and like you know I think about it like I think a couple days ago I saw that there were nearly to tell 2,000 deaths in the United States on a single day and I was like this is two-thirds of a 911 on a single day and it’s gonna happen again and tomorrow it’s really heartbreaking you know you were talking about some businesses that sort of makes or that are doing well as they’re like you know just by virtue of the fact that people have to stay in cookware companies Fitness fans and you’re right like I’ve tried to order fitness products and the weight is like a month or now yeah I waited to get a job broke yeah it’s crazy do you think that that acceleration is permanent so for instance if you if you have an order from instacart before and now you do do you get off of instacart are people gonna be like yeah I want a tunnel or a mirror I want to keep this like you know totals and mirrors are thousands of dollars and they have 50 a month like subscription fees or something to that effect they're incredibly expensive but is this now the new reality is Equinox sort of like in trouble or six months from now are these direct to consumer businesses back to where they were and equinoxes back to what it was um well I think there's two parts to that one is do do people like will people trust going out and going into a public gym again I think that like that to me is mind boggling but the second part is like you know how much how much do they value getting that like Palatine bike or soul cycle bike for their house and whether or not they will I think they I mean they've definitely seen sales just jump and for them their whole game is you know if they get a product in your house then they can't get have you with the subscription for quite some time yeah and what happens to the other company like a way Travel had to lay off a bunch of their staff ever Lane has as well you know a lot of companies have just as a result of the fact that sales were down and you can't yeah you know it's it's a terrible thing to have to do but at the same time if the entire business goes bankrupt there's nobody that can work there right and so it's a decision but probably the right decision what happens to these businesses in the future do they have down rounds do they go out of business ultimately to like you know what happens to a way I guess in six months or a year it was it was probably like the darling of the DTC community right like a huge valuation to female entrepreneurs who were I thought doing a fantastic job like really admire both of them and I know look you know I'd love to talk a little bit more about the press related to stuff Cordy and stuff later on but you know what like what happens to this a company that was doing everything right for so long you know investing in a brand you go to the airport and a ton of people are carrying their away bags what happens that brand a year from now yeah it's tough to say yeah it's so scary to immediate things that come to and as one is private equity and then the other is it just gets acquired by like you know one of the big big luggage companies and and they either like acquire it and roll in capabilities or they basically just keep the brand going but support the piano much better yeah it's really tough to say I imagine there's gonna be like down rounds for a bunch of these businesses and like you know aside from the founders who I you know have a lot of empathy for because they built an amazing business and like something terrible happened there was a completely outside their control and hurt their business also a lot of empathy for this employees that work there and you know had bought into that stock or exercise their options and now all of a sudden they're in a lot of trouble and it's not their way right it's an Airbnb and a ton of dodo pennies it sort of we're headed in the right trajectory and then all of a sudden or no longer you gonna do that yeah we'd love to touch base a little bit about well actually before we get there look do you think that like do you think there's opportunities to buy distressed direct-to-consumer businesses so like away travels obviously gonna be super expensive business but look what happened like how do people sell buy and sell these distressed businesses to be honest I'm not a hundred percent sure I've definitely been doing a little more research just because I've gotten curious recently about it yeah but and I've been talking to like like Mike for example who's our friend Nick Greylock but yeah I mean I'm just trying to learn about it as well it's it's like a completely new world for me I never thought that that I you know that all this would happen have you ever had to learn it before yeah okay let's talk a little bit about like you know not just Co vid but like let's talk a little bit about like what happened at outdoor voices and the press o is related to two-way travel you know like I've seen a lot of like articles sort of saying are there hit jobs going on on female against female entrepreneurs yeah I have no idea what the answer is to that like at native we barely got any press when we were independent I've never been a woman so I have no idea as to whether people are doing that certainly seems like something is happening but there are a lot of terrible or male run businesses that don't seem to be getting as much yeah totally I'm not sure why that's the case but you know I'd love to like you know III think outdoor voices and Steph Curry are very different businesses like the away travel you know certainly there were things that like Steph said that weren't great but I think if you look at anyone's like if you look at the slack history I had it native you know people would put me in prison I I was like saying terrible thing like if people [ __ ] up I was like how could you possibly [ __ ] up like this you [ __ ] you know like look that's you know it's a very intense process and yeah like you know all of your energy is being you know put on something so - yeah look geez like what did you think of the away travel one I thought it was really unfair I was like she's got she called like some third-party logistics company brain-dead and as like they probably are bad happens all the time this term I could think of a hundred percent I mean I've empathy on both sides I think as an employee you know if you're not used to that kind of environment of like the hyper growth startup or you know like that like I feel like a lot of a lot of the really successful brands or even companies that sell products like they have a very intense marketing or or customer success organization and it's because and like that's why they're so good is because they're so critical about their marketing their sales and their onboarding and so I think some people are definitely like not made for that I also think you know you probably don't want to be yelling at employees on public channels or private channels but again I mean that's a to you as like a founder if you do that like that's up to you I've definitely done it before so um and you know like you said if you're if you're a founder and and you know like I always try and have empathy for the other person so if like if I was your employee and you were like how the [ __ ] could you [ __ ] this up I'm not gonna get mad thinking o Moses mad at me I'm thinking he's right he has to deal with like you know this company that's trying to acquire him and he's probably dealing with fifteen other things me not doing my job put something else on his plate so like that's how I would do it and that's how I have these things and I was at the last couple companies I was at so all that said I mean those messages were like nothing that I've never gotten before there were nothing I've never said before in fact they're like soon yeah I was like Joe exotic when I was running native and like everyone else was a Carroll basket yeah I think like you know if you're gonna do it you own it and you know you also obviously make sure that your employees are not you know pissed off that they're working for you like sure you know there's good times and bad times and I think that's natural but yeah I mean I think the thing on the press too is like you know female founded companies are just numbers wise you know could be considered anomalies and so I think because of that the ones that that you know like it started way earlier when it was the ones that go through the red antlers or the gin lanes and they come out you know there's like a press tour it's like it's it's a very normal thing where like you know brands is launched and there's a whole press tour between you know everybody's goal is to get into the New York Times with a quote so they can throw that on their site that said I think the press you know good or bad will follow you throughout because people are just intrigued by the story and the hook is so much different than what people are normally used to I guess that that would be my like really zoomed out politically correct just like off-the-cuff thinking yeah I guess it's two things about that one is the other thing I thought about from like their way conversations that got leaked was you know they have a real commitment to customer service that's really incredible you know when they were late sending packages that's all like okay how about we send this person ten suitcases or a hundred suitcases to make up for it like that isn't that's what we want from customer that's what we want from customer service with direct-to-consumer businesses companies that have a total empathy and do the right thing when something gets when something wrong happens and so I really admired yeah the other thing from a press perspective like we you know look at native I was trying to court the press early on and all like you know see peach like all product process like I want to talk about native to yogurt and not the success of the business and what happened was that we couldn't get anybody did it like write about us and then one day we're like randomly we've created a rose a deodorant and we accidentally we launched it June 21st it wasn't even our goal like we we didn't realize that it was the first day of summer although was the first day of summer lounge dead and all of a sudden all these press institution picked up the product which we never thought would happen yeah but like we were on Good Morning America the Today Show you know info in refinery29 probably like 30 or 50 populations in the course of 24 hours and I was like great like this is it you know and in reality like I tracked the customer I tracked our revenue from that day and like all of those publications got us an extra twenty five thousand dollars in revenue and on that day Facebook got us like 50,000 dollars it was like we were like we we were like in a mini viral sensation certainly like nobody remembers it like it was in a lot of publications and got 25,000 it’s totally well I mean what is the why do people cordon press like this then yeah well I think it’s like you know it serves it serves both parties right because like you get pickup and it’s it’s good exposure and then for a lot of these outlets they just plug into your affiliate platform and if they can be contextual really relevant for what consumers are thinking which is you know jumping in these first day of summer articles and listicles then they’re gonna try and make revenue off of it it’s actually a good strategy for for when you try and launch stuff if you can be super and contextually relevant to as many people as possible which everybody can enjoy the first day of summer then you just increase your chances of getting picked up and things like that another example of something like that like I’m fair with Judy it like what did it happen with Judy look give me another example cuz I have a tough time yeah so you know with Judy like not speaking as a as a member of Judy but more is like an outsider you know when Judy launched there were like every Kardashian was posting about their Judy kit and and then Chrissy Teigan had posted it as well and all of a sudden there was an angle of like the Kardashians are promoting this emergency kit what is it and so that became a pro se angle there was another People magazine article which did really well that was something around like what this new emergency kit the Kardashians and and Chrissy Teigen are promoting and so it’s almost just like like just making sparks and one in and the fire happens on the other that make sense yeah but that said that one’s a little bit different than like the Rose a but similar in the sense that you you you can there are ways to plan things like press a lot of people tend to think that you just cold email reporters asking I talk about your product and then they’ll magically like pick it up one day but the real work comes in like figuring out the reason for them to write about it or creating that angle yeah because they’re also in cement as a publication like they’re incentivized by Admiral Avenue you make ad revenue buy more page views you get more page views by having going yeah it’s like a weird weird loop yeah you definitely have to be look you can’t just be like here’s this product please write about it you have to say yes why I think it’s interesting to the readers that you have I remember when my first e-commerce business I’ve constantly like look for people who have written about something else in the space and then sort of be like hey here’s something nice doctor so we’re it was a business itself alcohol online and so this TechCrunch reporter wrote about a distillery in New York City for some reason and I was like well that’s not very tech crunchy but if you’re really right about that maybe you’re really right about us because we know that distillery and the number one seller of their products and so he’s like okay great let me write about you guys so he wrote about us and then like Bloomberg picked us up and so did like CNBC or something like it was just random but like a cup of the kind and it’s like flywheel effect that one single publication that can have and so yeah look you gotta beYOU have to be persistent but you’re right those angles are really important yeah if you yeah if you can nail one of those anchors as like a you know whether it’s an exclusive or or they pick it up first then the others will definitely make a move to try and cover it just because you know if it’s coming from like a TechCrunch or Bloomberg then they probably assume people are going to be searching for it yeah did you guys hire a PR agent already at Judy or how are you guys doing that you guys not need one because you guys have all these influencers yeah they use no they use an agency gotcha yeah yeah when we were like running native I tried to get an agency and we ultimately settled on one but like before that I called up like the guys that are sort of doing a lot of direct consumer electic ensue more people work in New York and they were like yeah we charge twenty-five thousand dollars a month plus one like [ ] crazy that’s I don’t know came from there’s a one percent equity ask and I was like you don’t know anything about my business and you want one percent of it Allah I like the all birds and you to be asking for one percent of it or I could be a brand that does you know ten thousand dollars a year and you won’t want but those are two completely different like one is worth more than ten million dollars and the other is probably worth the dollar sorry how could you just ask for one percent equity without knowing anything else that’s insane have you ever have you seen people like do that kind of stuff Oh totally well the branding agents um branding agencies do it and still do it I haven’t seen it from PR I know there’s a couple firms in New York that’ll do like that that will do like growth marketing and they’ll also take some equity yeah but it’s it’s I don’t know I think that concepts kind of weird to like it’s it’s almost like exchanging currency and I think your currencies just have to be you know say yeah that’s why we use like confusion yeah you shouldn’t [ ] with changing equity for services and it just gets really messy also signing with somebody and he was saying that when you get to like let’s say you know you’re early and you’re like a like a native for example yeah and you you go off if you didn’t get acquired and you started raising like like round C and D like those investors start looking at your cap table thinking why the [ ] does this branding agency have 2% of the company like just knock them off and so they’ll just end up getting screwed later oh that’s interesting yeah I didn’t realize the people who do that I mean from like a branding agency perspective I’m a little bit more amenable to it because presumably your business is just started when you work with that branding agency that’s your about that but you know it’s worth noting and you might not have a ton of cash I was just surprised as like this buck you know that point needed was probably doing you know 2 million 3 million dollars a month and this person said if we want 1% of your company and I was like do you want one like this company could be doing 3 million a month or it could be doing 30,000 a month you don’t know yeah just me right that’s insane yeah I would look you know I wish that somebody put together like a Yelp vendors that e-commerce come to use yeah I know there’s honestly like that’s that’s one of the things I get asked the most is like who or who’s the best you know I always get like what’s a what’s a great paid media agency and really where people go wrong is is one they they just read stuff on the internet and they you know like agencies are all marketing themselves so they’ll all show themselves the best and so so one mistake is going by that the second mistake is thinking oh you know like this agency looks sick I want to work with them and I made that mistake at hint where I thought an agency which is a sick they didn’t see they they were just they did good work and so but the problem was you realize that like certain agencies are built for businesses at different stages and so you know we were too we were too small for that agency to really care but now I’ve kind of narrowed it down to like you know if you’re like if you’re under 200k there’s different person if you’re between like 300 I don’t know a million two million it’s a different stage and like you know two million plus is a different stage yeah that’s a great point San Jose are like PR and you know everything email PR like all your services affiliate to they’re all different at different stages yeah you don’t want to be like the smallest fish in a ginormous pond look you don’t want to work on your agency that is also working with like Nike and exactly because you’re never their priority yeah exactly it is interesting like you know at native what happened is the first year first like six months of the business we lost our contract meant like the person who was making our product it was like I’m making this and so we had to find another company and like the other company that we were working with what’s like this you know I think you doing them at this point it’s 800 ever were gonna have an 800 square foot facility that yeah or something tiny and like it was perfect for us because when we call them up we’re like hey we wanted to order a thousand units a week and they’re like that’s fine that’s like you know a very good quest for us other people we spoke to they’re like you need to order a hundred thousand units out of gate now it’s like you can’t even afford that so this and will you share what your cogs were when we launched when we launched the business of first $5.50 to make a stick a nativity ever and so were so high of 715 and we were song for 12 yeah Facebook we were profitable with Facebook which is crazy nice but it’s the same in 2015 our CAC was like two dollars in 2016 is four dollars yeah by the end of 2016 we’re doing a million dollars a month so there was a ton of even doubt that the business was generating but like there’s the cogs went down a ton so one for like 552 that that original manufacturer we switched and it became like 320 and every time we’ve grew they brought the cost down we went from like making a thousand units of G over in a week in at the end of 2015 or the beginning of 2016 by the you know middle of 2017 we were making 21,000 units a day and so we had just increased sales by like you know I don’t know 20 times 500 like you know 100 max basically and and so our cost came down to below two dollars like substantially below two dollars and look you know what was amazing is we found a manufacturer that was really able to grow with us they moved from like this 800 square foot facility to a 20,000 square foot facility now 40,000 square foot facility rarely do you find service providers that grow with you usually you go to a service provider and you outgrow them and they don’t make the infrastructure changes that they need and then you gotta go find somebody new totally totally did you ever consider you know like especially when you were doing let’s say 5,000 deodorants a day did you ever consider like oh I why don’t why don’t I just buy the facility to do it and buy the raw ingredients yeah certainly did not - seriously though like you know we were like the business was growing exponentially and like if you could work 80 hours a week just on the business without touching a single through the back end and I became really difficult like it didn’t have the view it was just like it was also peace of mind that it was like being taken care of yeah and the simplicity like when we were like you know I sold the business there were eight employees at the manufacturing facility I think they’re 140 and at the shipment facility there were like another hundred people and so you know there were eight employees and we had created something like 250 jobs but I only have to manage eight employees and I think one of the things I realized working at native was I like one of my weaknesses is like managing employees it’s something I’m trying to work on and like giving me structure and goals and communicating with them well and yeah and like I was like I can barely do that with eight people sitting here if there were 250 I put bullet in my head right like maybe more than me actually yeah and the person who was making it was just fantastic at it like had very few problems she worked really hard to make them well and so that was really give me a lot of peace of mind that’s awesome what of like other would or other like agents you know you talked about postcards which I think it’s fantastic when it comes to text messaging though it’s like the claim in text messaging I really I’m not sure if you’ve ever dealt with like ship monk they’re based in like Miami they do their faith but you introduced me to them they’re like of the only three people I’ve ever met that is run by a young person that’s in the 21st century look there ya have really good tech what are some of the other agencies that you recommend to people or some of the other companies they so like most media buying I recommend metric digital they’re just like their bread and butters is dtc brands especially if you have like a retail presence they’re really good at that let’s see texting SMS email probably Clay vo if you’re an influencer for texting huge community is that what you use yeah okay yeah let’s see landing pages is building on metal if I Commerce you Shopify although you’re not really a shut your you’d rather sad yeah which is crazy because like WooCommerce is you know when I used to use it as look I’m so embarrassed telling people that I use it and now I haven’t used Shopify and look you idiot it’s you guys are like now embarrass the Shopify Shopify is great but it offered you know our conversion rate went down by like a significant material amount once we switch from moody Shopify yeah because my checkout page I thought that like Shopify would be better than it is like I thought chocolate like would have all these network effects and yeah it really doesn’t have those it’s checkout page is terrible like it’s a multi-step checkout page the coupon code box doesn’t appear on the car page but it does business is at this point it’s only on the checkout page you can’t control the server like you know that native I actually bought a bunch of servers like we didn’t use AWS for a long time I actually bought some servers and prim up and like you know server farms and our site blazing fast and it should outlaw you can’t do that and then we used like you know we use our subscription portal which was that like you know which was a lot cheaper than recharge which is what shot which is what native these is today like like it was free actually and how does recharge charge you they charge a percentage of your subscription sales what a beautiful business yeah I mean look you know what we went from thousands of dollars a month yeah it was crazy yeah look my next business will be on goo Commerce again and next time I will not have any shame whatsoever no no it is commerce you’re like you know like someone that’s told mark or someone asked Margaret Thatcher like how do you like how can you have the position that you have when there’s 80 people that disagree with you like how does that make you feel she’s like I feel bad for the 80 people because I’m right and they’re wrong that’s now how you feel about what commerce yes yeah the hardest part was just like to develop our community it still needed some more like there should be about well there’s it that’s my biggest tough thing is finding really good developers on Shopify like I have one who I just have on retainer for myself like just for myself I have a Shopify developer who’s on my payroll and anything I need done I can hit him up and it’s just it’s so necessary because yeah a lot of times too you know like Shopify agencies that are on retainers for some of these brands they’re also sometimes not the best developers and and then you know you can’t necessarily rely on just internal developer teams either for me I like having my own like set of tools yeah yeah especially ones that you understand and yeah and I think it’s like it’s really hard like you know you’re working on a bunch of different businesses at the same time and it’s really hard to say okay these guys use Unbounce this guy uses something else this this company a party for a landing page and now you’re like I have to like learn all these systems yeah it’s really difficult to do all that yeah it is actually sorry god no no God okay what are other industry like you know directly yeah when we launched native dealer when I watched native I was thinking about doing native or another mattress company and I’m not entirely sure that I think the mattress company could have been even better like it seems like everyone who makes mattress company has hundreds of millions of dollars in sales in industry but you know hindsight is 20/20 and like no one was really doing deodorant at the time and today there’s like you know they’re so like they’re not annoying I’m just like look this is a three billion dollar a year industry the two biggest players you know Unilever in Procter & Gamble Oh have made acquisitions in this space you know we’re we’re digitally savvy we have a huge first mover advantage we have a good price point a good brand where do you look how much of the business are you looking to acquire if you’re looking to build a 10 million dollar a year business I get it you’re looking to build a 200 million dollar a year business you know that’s seven percent of the market that’s gonna be really difficult to do other industries that are untapped today but where should people be lucky you know do you like what’s a good example like when qyp came out I was like wow this is great guys are doing a great job with brand no one’s touching electric toothbrush great industry to be in what are other businesses that like need revolution like somewhere hard so I think like diapers is a great business it’s really odd because to make diapers it’s really expensive you need a lot of inventory you need a lot of different sizes and there’s very few companies that can private label diapers you need like a very expensive paper machine in order to make a diaper yeah to be honest I’m not 100% sure what like the most ripe would be just from observations though I think pet is one that like hasn’t really been done from a product side there’s a lot of food brands that are getting out there but not necessarily product wise I still think there’s just like I think there’s a lot on the side of convenience and accessibility even some of these brands that have come out with stuff just making things even simpler so I think that’s one area I don’t know the other day I was thinking of direct-to-consumer sauces there’s no sauce come there’s no like deep you see buffalo sauce or like dressings but I have yeah their stuff is good yeah probably the closest to that what are some do direct-to-consumer friends you really admire right now um dude wipes is one of my favorite dude wipes is one of my favorite because I think they have like some of just the funniest content dude was like the one way of Charlie from Dollar Shave yeah okay and it’s um they they were on Shark Tank years ago and like they they’re really good operators and so because they’re really good operators all they’ve done is just build brand and like the coolest toys possible so like their emails are just the best other brands I admire how rare is appalling for you like look forward to an email from a direct-to-consumer company like all the emails looks so rare so promotions Ted I’m just like I hate like I don’t look at any of this kind of yeah highlight all in archive yeah I usually look through and see if there’s any like cool new templates or cool things that people are doing with their audience but yeah aside from like you know like I signed up for qui B and so like I’ve been checking out some of their emails but nothing’s really that great but honestly lately it’s just been full of sales everybody’s just trying to liquidate yeah all right so I’m sorry but I interrupted you because I think you had a couple other friends you said you were gonna admire that you admired oh yeah a couple other brands you know I think what house is doing is pretty awesome because they’re very like they’re they’re super they’re other manufacturing is done literally on their farm and they have all the bottles as like inventory to fill and Hellena is just a great brand marketer and so she’s really good at just pivoting and and making things pop which is insane so that one’s really exciting for me to watch and also learn from and then you know on the I usually have like a couple faves I like on the brand side and then a couple of Fame’s on the performance side not necessarily their good friend but they just crush with performance they’ve great landing pages great ads like really like yours is the native one is one of my favorites just the home page or the landing page the cart all the upsells the payment token holds yeah yeah you know the up stills were crazy we have a post purchase upsell where we sell a trial like a travel-size do you rent we couldn’t sell otherwise right it sold for three dollars and it’s free shipping so we couldn’t sell you that and like we would lose so much money if we sold you that individually and you know we sell hundreds of thousands of those many size to your prints every month and they like you know they’re very profitable as well like often or even I was you know like a cops code like they’re eBay da is basically J that’s their membership fees I was like wow RT but does almost all like you know mini-sized we’re selling because there’s so much money yeah that’s awesome but yeah I usually have like a small tablet brands I just keep looking at their stuff yeah yeah likewise you know I talked to the guy who founded hims in hers for this podcast on that and there’s like when we yeah Andrew when we launched the business we separated our marketing budget and we got our Board of Directors to sort of say okay we’re gonna spend X percentage of our marketing budget on performance and Y percent on brand look right out of the gate no he said the majority was still performance yeah but that was and he’s like you know we do brand stuff like we buy coasters at bars yeah honestly my favorite thing about hims is Andrew is just a genius with I call it like finding that that new quote-unquote inventory you know like like above urinals the coasters bumble used to do coffee sleeves I love seeing brands do stuff like that it’s great like I’m at to me is just like so creative yeah and like or borrowers on Friday night and all of a sudden like you can you might be able to have a conversation about it because it’s on your coaster and it’s a product that these people were like the bars are giving away for like you know coasters or disposables like it was really and we cover their class - yeah it was a great idea and but look it so I won I was really impressed by like the marketing channels that he had created that didn’t exist before head and then - like I’ve never heard of a direct-to-consumer business at such a young stage sort of having the ability to spend so much money on brand marketing usually like you have one more inning budget and you know you send someone brand in someone performance but in reality you have like these numbers that you have to hit and he’s like well this is how we do it and what we have to invest in brand if we want to be around 20 years later yeah to get that’s a good point yeah it’s a great point I feel like a way did that I feel like all birds today as well yeah I just don’t know like I’d have never did that never spent one penny on the end one hint and I know no marketing budget was performance - and hint yeah most of it was performance you know actually pretty much I would say most of the brands that I’ve touched and it could just because I work with like the hyper-growth ones or you know more performance based but a lot of them their marketing budget is focused on performance and then I they’re like what’s left over or very tiny percentage is dedicated to grammar but I do think that like brand I mean Andrew did a great job building hims like everybody knew yeah everybody knew like the day of launch basically yeah I wonder like you know then I look back on things and I’m like okay what is right and what is wrong like I would really spend a ton on brand and is like struggle to find it and exit and struggle to sort of maintain its valuation a way seems like it’s gonna struggle as well as a result of CO bad maybe not necessarily like you know spending a lot on brand and not necessarily enough like as much on performance then I’m like you know what like all these brands that I really liked aspera spent a ton on brand right like all these beautiful out-of-home at it’s like beautiful imagery I see their team commercials and I’m like did you like Vincent and go to like create this this is [ ] fantastic look I want to free freeze this ad print it out and hang it on my wall oh yeah yeah and then I’m like but then you have a hundred million dollar valuation having raised four hundred million dollars so like uh you know are they right to be doing this what look what is the outcome here yeah I mean it will be really it’ll be an interesting case study and you know in 15 years to look back on it and like really look at what mattered cuz cuz um I mean just from how I’ve seen native like native has always been well named native and I think hinted it really well to when I was there was like performance branding which is you you build your brand equity on the back of your working media dollars and like I think native you guys simplified the messaging a lot which helped that’s why I like black wolf nation as well as the company the messaging is just simplified at hint we did the same thing but also to some extent a lot of these products provide convenience and an actual function they’re also consumable which I think matters lasts then function but they’re very functionable products and they have functional benefits to the consumer yeah and so as a result like the work thing I think you have to work a little less Gandhi brand side because if you can show them the outcomes or the benefits of the outcomes yeah then you just have a stickier brand yeah that said it will be interesting to see like I also don’t think like there’s one path to doing it that’s applicable to everybody or or right path yeah because also quite frankly I would also bet money that some of these companies that spend a lot on brand probably tried to do what you were doing at Maidan but just didn’t have the skillset to actually execute it and so their pit was to whatever they end up doing yeah yeah look you know it’s really hard build a performance-based company they said that has 500 million dollars in revenue but I think the only way to do that is one get investing in brand yeah I’m not sure like like brand marketing can get into 500 million dollar company I’m just not sure it can get you to a 50 million company that’s the crazy part like I need like some of that performance in order like like almost like an airplane right like you need some energy to take when you create that Ripple yeah it is really great like it’s crazy to think about what like what will happen in this community you know I think about Harry’s and the edge well not the edge well thing and the FTC sort of saying yeah this isn’t gonna happen you know I don’t know what Harry’s does now like P&G certainly can’t acquire them they’re gonna have another antitrust problem and P&G knows that in Harry’s knows that I don’t know how Billy feels because Billy’s supposed to be acquired by P&G you know I don’t know the next few months that was supposed to start when we were boxing in New York that was a long time ago that deal was supposed to like yeah that deal yeah yeah yeah yeah that’s right and so like I wonder what Harry’s like you know if I were sitting it if I were like Geoffrey I need Harry’s I’d be like you know I built this amazing brand somebody else agreed to pay one point four billion dollars for it and now I can’t get this done look what happened what is going on in this world I now must be crazy look if Sprint and t-mobile can merge and so that there’s only three phone carriers if there’s like if you know United can be merged with Continental and Delta with Northwest why can’t my dtc company sell to a strategic I’m a direct consumer new company that has launched in the last five years there’s an entry I think it’s it’s tucks and it’s also a complement yeah it certainly complement and I respect their business immensely I think like you know ya are looking are our lives both yours in mind were made so much easier by virtue of the fact that like Andy Don and Jeff and Eddie from Harry’s sort of pave this path for us like you know Andy like we’re gonna build the direct consumer business online everyone’s like what the [ ] is that and yeah yeah we’re gonna spend a bunch of money marketing and didn’t know how to spend it well and built you know pop-up shops now there people are copying and the Harries guys yeah we’re gonna take this door right to consumer business and we want you to target and it’s gonna be successful there and yeah you know when it came to when it came to native I was like great I know exactly what to do business like that and he did and then I’m gonna launch him to target like that and he did yeah and like you know target was like yeah we know why this is look we didn’t have to convince target you know target ya know why this is a good deal Ares has been taking a ton of market share and you know native is now 12 percent of the drn’s sales at our year 13 percent it’s awesome that was over a million dollars a week there and I’m just like I’m like we’re walking in the footsteps of like giants and yeah unfortunately Andy done didn’t have the best outcome at bonobos I think the outcome for Harry’s is too early to tell now you know it certainly made our lives a lot easier oh it totally I think like one thing that always gets lost even back to the those pressed pieces slamming the founders one thing that always gets lost is like a lot of these people paved the way or created these movements which is something to be appreciative of and you know like it like you said it allows us to have a job yeah yeah I really think that like 60% of this industry is like building your business and 40% is getting the timing right like outdoor voice is a hot brand brought in Mickey from like j.crew as their chairman broken somebody from like Nike that was like president or something they just didn’t get the timing right of like when to when to find a home for that business and same thing with Casper right like a fantastic brand absolute brand geniuses that created that you know and let great operators as well first month that they launched that a million dollars in revenue they were sending out air mattresses because they couldn’t receive orders so like we’re gonna send you this air mattress until we can get you a Casper mattress you know it’s sort of pioneered out-of-home ads particularly in New York like I don’t remember seeing simple yet until I saw Casper no never yeah that’s like [ ] all direct consumer businesses are now doing this and like just didn’t find a home at the right time for that business yeah yeah no I know I know you committed to some ads this summer what happens to those boys do you know yeah we’re trying to like so native it’s sort of agreed to do some subway ads in New York and you know do current sales pick up in like you know during the summer because it’s warmer yeah and all of a sudden you thought about sweating and you know you’re outside as opposed to when in New York it’s you know 12 degrees you’re sweating while you’re walking and so we we want to buy some out-of-home ads and like they were pushing for I don’t know exactly what time they were pushing for it and you know at the time I was feeling native I pushed for you know the summer which is now the worst time ever to run subway out because they’re so what ridership is down probably 90% and so we’re trying to look push them out a little bit so that we can still get some traffic like you know you know you agree to like a price and you’re like okay this is what the CPM backs out to based on the number of riders right someone has and then but you don’t agree to a CPM price you know you don’t say okay you’re gonna have this many rights right right number of dollars you say this year the price based on your historic traffic and that like that I was like I had terrible timing there it’s really couldn’t foresee yeah but like just absolutely terrible oh yeah I mean it’s nothing you could have yeah it’s nothing you couldn’t predict yeah I was pretty excited though yeah it was I was super excited too because I want to run all these like fun ads I would say like what stinks down here not you if you use native deodorant and the subway guys were like you have to be careful because you can’t make fun of the subway while you’re running look it’s you have to buy the inventory from us you can’t like be an [ ] to us and like we’re not gonna let happen this place is a [ ] use- to10 avoid the rats use native deer yeah what stinks not you use native deirdre like I think that would have been okay with them but yeah I mean look it is crazy out like venturi has sort of changed and you know when I talk to people who are who are advertising on Facebook these days they’re just like prices are down on substantial like CPMs are down because your yachts and United’s and you know Toyota’s of the world just aren’t advertising on there now yeah yeah actually yeah totally and then the ones that you know when all that big a agencies pulled out then all the really savvy people like Gus went in and started you know creating these campaigns yeah and be overall inventory got super cheap yeah I remember looking 2017 Mark Pritchard who’s the chief brand officer at P&G like when on The Wall Street Journal and he’s like we’re cutting our facebook ad spend by a hundred million dollar artists because Facebook just doesn’t provide the return on investment that it should and I was I was sitting there like this is pre acquisition I was like fantastic yeah you’re missing it’s fantastic out here if you’re lucky to me about running Facebook Ads so like yeah you’re right it is that it is that don’t worry about it stop spending meanwhile I’ll go ahead and increase my set yeah like that’s what happens in auction based platforms totally if somebody was gonna start you know I know we’re running over time already if someone’s gonna start a new business today what is the best way to learn learn about digital advertising I feel like you know you’re an expert at it you were doing it hit hit water by the way I try to spoke to Kara earlier this week and she was like we ran a Superbowl commercial and causes under a million dollars to run that Superbowl commercial and I was like when you said you focus mostly on performance ads I was like okay it sounds like that’s change now Superbowl commercial performance it’s also interesting to hear that just yeah you know you’ve run acquisition a bunch of companies you’re advising a bunch of companies when it comes to acquisition you’ve run your fair share of Facebook Ads certainly admire your expertise there what’s the first step that somebody should do if they’re cold and they’re working at you know I don’t know Johnson and Johnson or they’re working there are like a paralegal somewhere and they want to run this direct-to-consumer business where should they go to learn about direct consumer advertising um they know to be cooking yeah yeah you can definitely text me the the main thing like I I had always tried to find like whether it was that one site that was really good at educating you or like the you know that one course or whatever but there did it just doesn’t exist and also this world changes so fast that there’s really nothing that can constantly keep up I found that for me the best tool is like I just started building a group of people that I constantly talked to so you know whether it’s like these are people most of them initially were just actual like acquisition people so people like you know the head of marketing at like third love or Madison Reid or some of these like big d2c brands yeah and then and then I just started figuring out that I could use Twitter to network and now now like I’ll talk to people who are running you know tens of millions of dollars of ads all the way to people who are you know doing a thousand dollars a month in sales and they’re really proud of it but I it’s easy for me to just kind of learn through seeing what other people are doing and then the other thing I’ll do is just you know like stock the really really good brands and see exactly how they do it whether it’s they’re looking at their creative you know there’s things you pick up like if you go to you know probably even native see if you go to natives like Facebook Ads library 80% of the creative looks the same that’s the creative that’s doing really good and so you just like you do that I constantly have a list where I’ll go through you know the top like 50 or 60 brands and just see one or all their landing pages looking like now if I identify similarities it’s because it works you know I just I learned by observation so I I’m like looking at what other people doing and then figuring out the why and then basically taking the why and trying to make that with my own version yeah that’s a great point I think like you know someone made fun of us for like having a landing page of the look like Harry’s and I was like you’re you’re using this as like an insult and I pick it I picked up what you said and put it on myself as a badge as a compliment yeah yeah we didn’t spend the money to do it but we looked at other people and emulated yeah and you know if you look at like a lot of these brands that spend you know millions of millions of dollars a month like we can we don’t have to do that that tests thing they’ve done the testing gave us we just have to see what you know they’ve come out with yeah I’m a big fan of like work smarter not harder so agree with uh like sort of looking at of looking at competitors or actually best in best-in-class sites to see what they’re doing really well when you said you developed like a network of people on Twitter and presumably slack and communicate with them and some of them are spending you know a thousand dollars in some of them are spending ten million dollars a year on Facebook Ads how does that help you um it helps me in a few different ways so like you know if I know that you know if I if I know that for example I’m helping out a telemedicine brand you know on board new new customers and they’re a part of their customer journey requires like going through insurance then I have a friend who runs marketing at another telemedicine brand for women where they have that whole kind of funnel and they’ve gone through that whole process so for me can be as easy as you know texting him and asking a question in other cases it could be like you know I I needed a Shopify developer two months ago and so I had asked a couple friends and right away they were just like oh yeah here use this guy he’s the best yeah and yeah I usually just learned that way I’m a big like questions person my theory initially I think the reason that it kicked off was because I don’t really have a formal education in anything and so my thought process was that and I also wasn’t a big reader so my thought process was basically like instead of instead of going to like books and instead of going to college if I just surround myself with the people who write these books and I get the information first um then I should be in a good enough position yeah III think that’s absolutely right you know there’s two things that say look I have a formal education and I can tell you I like never use it on a single day unless like you know unless someone’s saying something like requiring me to do something that I don’t want to do and yeah you’re a Harvard lawyer and you know I don’t have to do this I’m not your slave yeah and so I think that’s the only time I use it and I think you know you’re talking about networks in San Francisco and I started doing when you were growing native and we’re really small as I started hosting like this ecommerce brunch so like every Sun one Sunday a month I would get like ten people who are all in ecommerce into a room and we would talk about like you know the problems that we were having from like in operations perspective a personnel perspective and really a marketing perspective I said what is VN from you but for you guys on a marketing perspective where are you spending money you know it like that Network really helped me understand the shift from like desktop to mobile from you know mobile static images to mobile video landing pages colors that would work how important creative was versus headline you know important the you know the display image was before it started a video like all that kind of stuff and like that community like aside from the fact that it was really like easy to voice my concerns to other founders who came to the brunch it was super inspirational I remember like coming out of those brunches being like it’s Sunday at 2:00 p.m. I have nine hours of work to do today because yeah all these guys had such good ideas I need to get started executing yeah in myself Scott Swanson who I don’t think you’ve met but he actually used to work at the hustle me Scott the head of marketing at third love Hadamard a Madison Reed and Mike do blow when he was at the stitch fix we would all get lunch once a month and and sometimes we would come up with these meetings and we all had pretty much the same customer but we were not competing so it was great and we would come out of these meetings and Scott and I would take like an idea that we discussed over lunch and it would make us an extra hundred grand the next weekend yeah it’s Chris but it totally did help with like like you know third love and Madison Reid um did a ton in podcasts and TV so like we learned a lot about that before we stepped into that it helped us with figuring out things like the right agencies you know who are the right buyers yeah all the way down to like you know oh I don’t you know we’re hiring we’re trying to hire a head of retention how do we go about hiring that or you know we have this issue on the team where this person thinks they’re supposed to be doing email and affiliate but like random issues but it helps to have that group where you know the chances of one of them having already dealt with that issue is pretty high yeah that’s it that’s a great point it’s like your personal like Yelp where you have a bunch of people who have had some experiences and it’s just like brainstorming in a way where sometimes you need to get other people’s perspective who are doing the same thing you’re doing although it’s different to really open up your eyes for me we had like a guy from with Eric who runs nectar mattresses or it’s called like nectar yes and you know I saw his business go from like zero dollars to north of 200 million dollars and I was just like what the [ ] is going on over there like every month we come in and I’d be like what the [ ] how is your growth that huge and yeah really helpful and so when I was looking at working perspective might go to him and alright you know need to discuss a small team issue you know I talked to the guys that the vine Boxer Japan crater somebody else who is small but like sort of growing like struggling well and like had a lot of insight and yeah yeah I think those networks are like underappreciated they’re like sort of totally below the radar it’s a total advantage to yeah it really is you know you’re talking about how you guys had different businesses to how like certain things would work I don’t know there’s like there needs to be a private equity firm that sort of buys up a bunch of these businesses and spreads like everyone’s biggest costs or one of their biggest cost is certainly customer acquisition it’s got to be in the top five or probably the top - oh definitely you know someone needs to spread this around cuz you’re right like the customer who’s a native customer is probably a hint customer and the customer is a hint customer is probably an outdoor voices customer and we’re all paying Facebook to sort of like acquire these customers as opposed to saying you know we have this one email address it would probably apply to all three of us trying to share this resource yeah there I’ve thought so much about this there was actually a company that I think the farthest it got as like like as operators we’re trying to do that the furthest that ever got was like sharing Facebook audiences like look likes I’m gonna swapping look like some young brands but everybody got super well one people got really protective about their email list especially if it was a big list everybody was really cautious and then secondly anything from like a bigger company that had you know I would say like more than 50 people they naturally had like a chief technology or chief privacy or chief legal and that’s where it gets really tough so it is tough but if somebody could figure that out or or you know it’s another one I think I’d say the screenshot one time but it’s it’s if you could develop a Shopify app the hustles like the perfect audience for the a Shopify app that imagine if like I was at hand you were at native and it was one landing page you check out on the landing page and it pushes the order out to both hint and native so on the back end it gets fulfilled like a normal order and on the front end the customer pays once puts their information and once and it basically goes out to two stores rather than checking out on my site and I send you an excel sheet or vice versa you’re saying so there’d be one check out like one website that sells both of our products know so well yeah it could be that but it’s more so like you know the reason a lot of people don’t do like things like like acquisition collabs is because it’s like well who owns that customer technically is it on my store that they check out or your store and then if it’s if it’s just another site like Amazon then Amazon owns it so in this case everybody wins yeah I think you’re absolutely right I think the first step to getting there is actually like the word step which is like the private equity company coming in and buying of these businesses and start sharing like because once they prove that hey this kind of stuff works and we can bring your marketing costs down thirty five percent and that’s your biggest you know like that’s the biggest line and you have in terms of expenses now all the sudden everyone’s gonna be like well this cancer like this company’s got a competitive advantage and we have to I think there are certain companies that are trying I would be surprised if atomic and like Kim’s in hers don’t share that kind of stuff and I’d be surprised as like you know that the new chin Lane isn’t trying to do that as well yeah it is like I like no has done it well and like yeah you know people are attempting it yeah yeah there are a lot of people attempting it like a back when Facebook would share interests with you like I look at natives it audience and I’d be like what are the other things you like and I’m like great oh he’s other like like 60% of our customers also like to honest that’s how I would find a lot of like media partnerships we saw yeah the first time I ever did it out it was like the skin was in the top five and I was like yeah this kid yeah yeah it was great and like I was just like we have the exact same audience and we felt like the honest honest Cohen native had the same audience and we have to each of us have to acquire on customers independently doesn’t make any sense it’s just the only like you know yeah awesome Nick really appreciate your time we’re way over already so thanks so much for being on this on this episode if people want to follow you if we’re should they text you which they follow you on you know on Twitter you can text me at nine one seven nine zero five two three four zero or you can follow me and tweet me on Twitter at mr.sharma fantastic Nick’s thanks so much for your time really appreciate this I always love chatting with you I feel like you and I have this status of like performance marketing if direct-to-consumer businesses yeah and there isn’t all this like hoopla [ ] you know there there’s no like you don’t put yourself out there like you’re royalty you’re like look I’m uh I’m the commoner of fighting the good fight exactly and it makes it a lot easier to to challenge yeah awesome awesome thanks so much for your time