Episode of My First Million with Sam Parr and Shaan Puri.
Transcript
Note: This transcript was auto-generated from YouTube captions. It may contain errors and lacks speaker identification. A full Gemini audio transcript will replace this.
Kind: captions Language: en we probably shouldn’t box i i boxed i had my boxing card and boxed pretty consistently uh various times i’m not very good you don’t get a nose like this do yoga i feel like i can rule the world i know i could be what i andrew hueberman was just on the podcast if you don’t know who he is i’m going to try and describe him very simply he’s this guy who works at stanford i believe he’s a neuroscience dr hubermann is his name and he’s got this youtube video uh series and a podcast called huberman labs where basically he picks one topic like sleep stress building muscle um depression addiction and he’ll do like an hour to two hours of just talking into the camera and talking to his mic and explains very easy ways to understand what it means and how you can overcome or like what supplements or what exercises you can do to address he’s only been around for 10 months and he’s already one of the top 10 most popular podcasts he’s everywhere on youtube this guy is a badass we just had him on the podcast i would i’m kind of like starstruck a little bit because i’m such a fan of his um i think you’re really gonna dig this it’s a little bit health focused towards the end we get into a little bit more business stuff but if you’re into business you have to be healthy otherwise you’re not gonna be able to perform well and so we talk a lot about that we talk a lot about morning routines and these aren’t just like well i write my journal it’s like well no if you do this uh based off of science based off peer review research if you do this you’re going to feel this way and that’s going to help with x y and z so it’s like kind of a evidence research based podcast that we’ve just done it’s pretty freaking cool so enjoy it ben what do you think um he just sean uses the term shortcuts he’s really good for giving little hacks i just feel like i took away like six to ten little hacks i can use in my life that is gonna make it better mostly biologically like it’s going to actually improve my sleep or uh improve my ability to focus and things like that so i think there’s a lot of great little nuggets for people in it so check it out and by the way we are giving a thousand dollars to six people what you have to do is you go to rate this podcast dot com slash mfm so that’s mfm as in my first million so rate this podcast dot com slash mfm and leave us a review all you gotta do is leave leave us a review i don’t even care it’s a negative review tell us how you think about anything one star five star i don’t care do whatever you want and uh at the end of the month we’re gonna pick like i think six of them and give a thousand dollars away so rate this podcast.com mfm write something cool write something funny maybe if you stick out we’ll uh we’ll pick you um let us know what you think about the podcast enjoy the episode do you check notifications on youtube uh i do not okay so let me tell you something really quick so about two weeks ago so i’m a big uh bay area punk rock fan so i listened to like i used to live in san francisco for years i listened to like old rancid old green day and i was looking at an old interview with tim armstrong from rancid and it has like very little views and i was loving this interview and i was going to comment how much i love it and i scrolled down and you were the first comment on there and i replied to you uh and so i thought that was funny we have similar interests i did not expect to see you there on an old tim armstrong from yeah i’m a huge uh rancid and tim armstrong fan i mean without taking up too much of our time on this i’ve never i’ve never met tim personally um but uh yeah growing up i was a operation ivy fan big fan of a band called crimp shrine this whole east bay punk scene and then rancid came out and actually tim and matt freeman had a band called downfall in between you can find some of those tracks and i love those tracks i just love it um they cover such a huge range of styles and they’ve just done amazing things and yeah so if there’s any content out there that’s you know rancid acoustic or downfall rare rancid tracks i scour the internet for them if i don’t know about them send them to me and as i devour that stuff and we’ll have sean kind of do like an intro on you but really quick this is one of the reasons why i think people like you and why your podcast has taken off because you’re this intellectual powerhouse but you look like an athlete yet you kind of have this like punk rock side to you like you gotta tell that you have that to you and i think that you’re just like a really like eclectic interesting person and i think that’s why so basically sean you can do the intro but you’ve had this podcast that just launched like a year ago you’re already the biggest guy there is uh or top ten top five it’s pretty amazing um and i think that’s one of the reasons why why you’re you’re kicking ass is because you are quite eclectic and very different from what we’re used to no go ahead i guess to say we can kind of like set the scene so uh so we have uh andrew huberman here dr hooverman and uh known known for huberman lab and you’re a neuroscientist uh professor at stanford and you have a whole bunch of you have an interesting podcast and i’ve seen you everywhere recently so i don’t know if this is like i don’t know if you have hired an amazing pr person i don’t know if i’m just late to the party but you went from i’ve never heard of you before like three months ago let’s say to i only hear about you my youtube feed is basically just giving me more and more of your content every day so is that is that a new thing or or am i just like discovering it now oh it’s a it’s a very new thing i mean to just give you the quick arc um you know leaving out all the pre-academia stuff you know i did my training in neuroscience and in physiology things like temperature regulation and things of that sort and over the years i worked on a number of different problems formally meaning in laboratories as a phd student postdoc a junior professor and tenured professor things like stress and regeneration and what happened was right around 2015 i started getting curious about how scientific information is making it out into the general public um but there really wasn’t a a cause or a venue for doing that there were these meetings like big summit meetings and things like that that weren’t really my flavor to be honest they’re perfectly fine but um they would typically go something like you know yoga class group of meditation one talk buy my product by my book and then people go and so what happened was in 2019 i have a good friend his name is pat dossett he’s a wharton grad a former navy seal operator um did nine years in the seal teams he’s a good friend of mine we swim together um he much further ahead than i of course um you know those guys definitely have extra gears um i’ve you know seen that and and pat uh also has a company called made for which is a behavioral health company who started with blake mykoski who’s a founder of tom’s shoes so what happened was that in 2019 pat asked me a question we were literally getting out of the water we’ve done an early morning cold water swim and he said you know what are you going to do in 2019 to make the world a better place and i was like well you know i’m trying to figure out neural regeneration stress and how to sleep better in my lab i said yeah what are you really gonna do he was kind of poking at me and i said well you know i think um it’d be fun to just teach science on the internet and just put quality information out there because i don’t see that so i started doing that in 2019 little short posts pretty nerdy stuff mostly on instagram and people seem to like it and then in 20 and i got a book deal um in 20 end of 2019 i thought i would do what most academics do write a book sell a book and then 2020 hit and a couple things happen one is i realized there was a tremendous need for people to have the tools for managing stress and circadian rhythms and sleep and managing mental workload and etc because everyone was locked down and stressed out and confused as was i frankly um but i had access to these tools so i started disseminating the tools by going on podcasts and on instagram and then eventually the podcast led to a you know the rogan appearance certainly had a lot to do with it a rich role appearance um that did uh well also in lex friedman at the end of 2020 great podcaster and also a great friend of mine now said you should start a podcast so january of 2021 bought the mics set it up i uh looked to my skateboarding punk rock past i have a friend named mike blayback known as playback photo in the skateboard in action sports community shoots all the stuff of ginkana and ken park driving rally cars of danny way tony hawk all the um they’re only a few superstars of skateboarding and action sports photography mike happens to be one of them and he said let’s build an aesthetic that kind of represents you i always wear the same black shirt i own 26 of these that’s not for the podcast you know i i always keep my hair short and just you know this is me on any day it’s just that the kind of camera showed up and i started sitting down and saying well what would i do in a classroom if someone was interested in stress and how to manage stress well i would give four lectures on that and so a big feature of the podcast that’s a little different is that than most podcast is that i try and stay on theme and i try and keep it like i would in a classroom but then offer a lot of tools which is a little different so that’s really how it happened and uh no no pr firm no um uh you know big no no contract signed everything we’ve got with my team how did you get on roads to one stage yeah how’d you get on rogan because that was a big obviously inflection point and then that leads to tim ferriss that leads to more and more so how’d you get on rogan yeah and that was all this year so then um well two things about that um i’ll just want to make sure i close the hatch on so i haven’t written this book um i haven’t released it for two reasons one is that in 2020 i didn’t want to sell anything i was coming to the table as an academic with a tenured position and a salary frankly we don’t make big salaries even at stanford um yes if my dean is listening the salaries at stanford are not in keeping with the cost of living in the bay area which is why most people sit on company boards and things of that sort so um you do science for the love of it um but i didn’t want to talk about my work um and be self-promotional i really love learning and teaching and i have one mission in my professional life and that’s to share the magic and the utility of biology i i mean that’s for me just fills me up and talking about my work is fun we can do that if you want but there’s so much terrific work out there so what happened was the second rogan appearance is you know joe said you know huberman’s doing this podcast thing and people seem interested in it let’s get them back on to share some of this information and but how did it happen in the first place well i have a good friend and business partner at my podcast um his name is rob moore and no he’s not taking new clients um so because he no longer does what i’m about to describe which is that rob uh came from the world of of pr but then he got really interested in podcasts he’s in his mid-thirties and he started a podcast called the fight with teddy atlas he loves boxing he really likes it oh yeah yeah yeah i listen to that every week yeah okay you work you work with that guy yeah he’s got like a thick boston accent right uh that’s ken rideout who’s a friend who i met through rob rob you’re not going to see you’re not going to find he sits behind an email wall and he’s a a close friend of mine um you know october this time last year october november of 2020 we went for lunch and i said let’s start a podcast lex thinks that we’ve got traction with a podcast and i think he’s right and he said great let’s do it let’s buy the mics let’s you know we built the studio with our own hands mike showed up got the dc team in there because they’re friends with of mine um dc shoes dc skateboarding and they helped me you know create an aesthetic that we thought would would work for make people feel like they were in a classroom um and you know rob uh was the one who connected me to the person who connected me to joe uh there’s a little bit of i since this is a public venue there’s a little bit of a of a wall there just because they get flooded with requests and i’ll be honest you know i don’t know what their process is um i think that they have a process and and if i’m not privy to it i think that what’s beautiful about the rogan podcast having been a guest on there and obviously a big fan is that they i think what you see is the real deal uh you know joe sits down with people that he’d like to have a meal with and or conversation with and has a conversation and um and the human appetite for that is obviously huge uh people seem to really resonate with that and of course joe is a tremendous reason um so he’s been tremendously helpful tim ferriss uh rich roll and lex friedman and i will say that lex has been my uh kind of guiding light in this whole process about bringing certain elements of my own person and personality to things you know yeah i am i mean this is going to sound weird to anyone who’s looking to this for science information but and it might not even make sense but sam you’ll get it and i don’t know other people will too which is like yeah i’m a died in the wool punk rocker i grew up in that and if this that scene i think people think of as like loud music loud clothes loud everything that scene at its at is essence the reason i gravitated towards it early is that it’s very varied it’s about showing up like heartful strong it’s not a it’s never a victim stance but it’s not an aggressive stance but it’s not a weak stance either and for me it just resonated and so it’s like let’s you know the opening track of my um podcast for instance is a song i don’t um want to get the copyright people on me so uh that’s familiar from the punk rock culture and i just wanted to bring all that forward and i think lex was the one who really said pick two or three things that you really feel represent your relationship to science and that give you energy for that lexus is a genius i have to say what you see there with the jacket and tie and all the interviews lex works so hard he thinks so hard where he’s going with all this and he just interviewed the director of the national institutes of health francis collins that is not an easy grab um so in any case that’s a long-winded i don’t tend to be succinct so i’ll stop yeah i want to ask you about i’ll ask you about lex in a second but for those who who are listening and don’t know who you are basically i i have your channel up right now so your first video was launched 10 months ago your video is basically you and you’re this is weird to say to you but you’re you’re like a good-looking dude you’ve got like a goatee you look kind of like a football player you’re you’re wearing you’re wearing a black shirt with a black background you’re pretty serious um and you’re just sitting for like 60 minutes to almost two hours sometimes and you’re explaining things that sound complicated like how your nervous system works and changes master your sleep um using failures movements and balance to learn faster so these are like things that are somewhat complicated but you sit down and you look at the camera for one to two hours and you tell you you you explain what what it all means and then you do something that’s interesting where it says like all right so how do you take advantage of this and apply this and use this um and you’re long-winded on purpose because you said you’re like i’m not gonna i need you to know exactly how this works so you can decide what you want to do versus me just telling you exactly what to do yeah there’s like a balance of uh you can simplify something so people can understand it without dumb remove their own agency to to to to dive in yeah yeah thanks for that description you know my um like i said that the goal and and really my purpose in life i know mission statements and purpose sound kind of they’re kind of cliche and but it is really is i get i so i have this process that i’ve used for a long time which is i like to just pay attention to what puts energy into my body um the music like i’ll hear a song you’re familiar with this you hear a song like yes you know it just fills you with energy whether or not that’s dopamine or adrenaline or we could dissect that but that’s not the point but that energy is a is a neural energy it doesn’t have to do with calories it doesn’t but that energy is your source right like in the eastern philosophies they would call it chi or whatever it is so i’ve always sensed what i really enjoy and for me learning cool information and sharing it is what i want to do so what i try and do is paint a a tapestry at the beginning of here’s a topic like stress or sleep or dopamine or adhd or eating disorders or whatever and arm people with the language and make them realize that the nomenclature is just words we can replace some of those words and let’s get a functional definition of things going and then once they understand how things work a little bit some of the the algorithms so to speak then let’s talk about what you can do with this and how you can use light to change your circadian rhythms or particular patterns of breathing that are grounded in physiology to de-stress rapidly etc and so yeah and can you explain this first video so your first video is only sean was saying that like you’re you came everywhere you’re everywhere very quickly your first one was only 10 months ago that first video has 652 000 views it’s a slick looking thumbnail can you walk me through how much did you spend to build that studio and like how did the first traction do you think come to this video your very first video 650 000. the very next one looks like a month later a million views the next one 630 i mean you hit right away you were you were hitting right away how did that happen yeah that’s a good question so a big part of that was i don’t think it was the thumbnails because actually we were told by youtube that our thumbnails weren’t legible i had these fancy anatomical drawings you know that uh now we’ve changed them a bit um we’ve learned some things you know faces do better than images etc but if you thumbnails that are really clickbaity are thumbnails where someone’s going like where they said the wider the eyes the more people click and kind of crazy stuff um we didn’t do that because i want people to know that i’m here with a serious you know serious information because i’m serious about them it’s sort of like why always the black shirt these are actually the blacks i am literally on 26 of these that i like these particular shirts um i’m not trying to get picked up by the by the maker so i won’t mention it but i’ve always worn them i like like them but also me and sean always wear black typically because it’s easy to hide if you’re fat or wrinkles right or tattoos not that i’m confessing that i have any tattoos but the uh if i was neck to knuckles tattoos i would just do it but i’m not but the um and kids uh yes you should be able to dress however you want do whatever you want but that’s not the way the world works people are always evaluating so you decide it’s your gamble i always say authenticity is not the same as over sharing these days i think there’s a big tendency to think oh because you can deadlift 500 pounds that you should put that on the internet um one so this is part of my answer which is that by the end of 2020 the instagram channel had grown to several hundred thousand but that mind you took two years and a 50 5-0 podcast appearances as a guest so um we announced that we were going to launch a youtube channel to get over there and subscribe we just started pushing out content frequency is a big deal um you know we do one a week we may advance to one and a shorter one um each week next time but you know free consistency you know not surprisingly counts and there’s consistency of aesthetic too uh you know this the building the studio was fairly straightforward um thank you mike playback my good friend and dc i mean the one thing about skateboarders that they really really know how to do well is to create original content in a diy format okay so actually mike is out on a shoot right now uh with spike jones right so i grew up with i don’t know spike but i grew up with a lot of the guys who ride for girl mike spike jones owns girls a portion of girl skateboards so i grew up around people that took video of us playing around on the streets on skateboards and made videos that became these iconic things and so well skateboarders were kind of like the first youtubers uh you know if you look at old transworld or 411 videos or old dc or like the like like what bam was doing with jackass you know it was the cky videos we were the skaters were the first youtubers that’s right though they really were and um you mentioned 4-1-1 so you definitely you know 4-1-1 is like no i still skate i i was just hanging out with mikey mikey taylor this weekend professional skateboarder skateboarding yeah yeah yeah and to be clear because i want to maintain my um integrity with that community i wasn’t a great skateboarder i was okay uh thunder trucks put me on out of sympathy spitfire put me on out of sympathy um but i wasn’t gonna be one of the big guys it was just a community i really felt a part of and when i went off to college because my high school girlfriend went to college i tripped and fell into biology i thought i’d be a skateboarder or a firefighter or something was more physical but i fell in love with biology and and just that’s what i’ve been doing ever since but i think the aesthetic keeping a fairly narrow messaging too you know we’ve turned down every option to make a little bit of extra money doing affiliate codes i mean we do have advertising and affiliate codes but to just pepper things with you know advertising everywhere we just i want people to have a zero-cost trusted source for science health and fitness information of course we’re not going to get everything exactly right but to know that if they come to the hubermann lab channel that they’re going to get information that’s vetted that i’ve i always consult with at least two or three colleagues professional in a given area before i do a podcast of just me because i don’t work on adhd i know the a fair amount about it but i consult with experts and so i have a kind of advisory board so i use the scientific community and it’s a kind of a beautiful um ecosystem where our advertisers are happy we’re happy our but the main thing is the consumers get it at zero cost to consumer and i think that’s very different than a book and that’s very different than a behind paywall strategy i’ve seen a lot of health and science uh podcasters who are quite good move their stuff behind a paywall because you can make much more money charging you know 10 30 a month or something and i like to think that people would be willing to do that for our content however i feel best about the fact that for some kid sitting in halfway across the world who wants to understand weight training or adhd or dopamine or sleep they just as long as they have an internet connection they have to tolerate a few ads but the information is free to them what why don’t you just bail as a million dollars a year uh well i i’m i’m i guess academically masochistic because um well it’s it’s interesting i’m happy to announce this now i actually took um i i love doing research uh we have a big project on human stress we’ve been working on human fear i love doing research and actually a fairly sizable portion of the huberman lab podcast income is going to be donated to research and to scholarships for students um i i’m not i’d be very honest i’m not i i’m not extremely wealthy nor do i um suffer you know i and i i it’s money is important i always say money but can’t buy happiness but it absolutely can buffer stress no question about that um anyone who’s ever had significant funds throughout their lifetime don’t truly understand that statement people who haven’t will understand exactly what i mean and i i think money is very important but so is the ecosystem between academia public health and science communication and the private sector and for the time being it just makes sense for me to continue to teach at stanford i teach medical students in the winter on neuroanatomy i direct the neuroanatomy course and i really enjoy academic conversations um they’re slow it’s like leading through steel one thin layer at a time but what you get too often is a kind of granularity where it’s a process it’s it’s not so much you get to answers it’s you get to a process of getting to answers um and i don’t think i’d be happy without doing that actually a couple people fans of the pod and they are i knew they would be excited to have you on because we we mostly this is a business oriented podcast that’s why kind of we’re asking you some things about the business of how you you became a content creator how you got your audience you know why do you sean we’ve not even we’ve not even told them what we do i guess i i i didn’t well i i did i did a little bit of research um and i i was delighted when you guys asked i mean i’m new to twitter uh frankly i didn’t like twitter when i first got on i was like wow people are really combative compared to instagram um and i think it’s because you don’t have to show your face and i’m a very like i’m not an aggressive person but if somebody goes wants to go toe-to-toe i still have that in me i’m not suggesting anyone get violent out there but people would come at me and on instagram and start well show yourself let’s go you know like let’s have a conversation and um you know so i don’t get into back and forth in comments i found twitter to be an incredibly combative neighborhood and then you guys showed up i was like oh wow i guess there’s some nice people in the neighborhood so sort of like finding the other punk rockers and skateboarders it’s like you and me we got the same thing and we’re good so that’s that was the feeling i had and then it turns out that’s actually the case twitter you get rewarded every network rewards you for a different wit which is like the plus side so you know being witty in 140 characters but then on the other side it’s basically uh you know if you have the sharpest insult at somebody you also get rewarded and you don’t have to show your face and there’s all these other benefits and so so it brings out a different side it’s actually youtube used to be this way too the youtube comments i don’t know if people remember this but youtube comments used to be the running joke as like what is the most cesspool of the toxic commentary that exists it was called the youtube comments and now youtube comments are extremely i don’t know what they changed in the algorithm or the the flagging or what what not but youtube comments are on the whole you know either funny or supportive or whatnot they really change that tic toc is doing it um but anyways one thing about comments uh before i forget started interrupt but vis-a-vis business because i know that’s your your main audience is one thing that i did on instagram early on and then i do on youtube is comment sections are great but better to make them interactive so i actively request and we read every single comment i say tell me but give me give us feedback but also give us suggestions and give us ideas about future podcasts and then i’ve devoted entire episodes we haven’t done one in a while but to what we call office hours which is where i go through the most frequently asked questions and address those so now there’s an incentive to ask to put stuff in the comments and i think that’s a really good non-combative use of the comments section and we of course still get some uh crazy stuff in the comments and people being combative but um they should just know that we don’t actually read those no i’m kidding we read them all yeah for sure um so i wanted to talk about a couple things one was what we talked about now how how did you where how did you break out what and i think it’s great you know i teach science on the internet it’s such a simple a simple like sort of philosophy a simple you know business statement of what do i do what am i here to do and then the mission i enjoyed that as well but i wanna actually go through some of those greatest hits so some of the reasons that you’ve grown in popularity is that you put out nuggets that are interesting to people and when i was talking to friends saying you were coming on they said you know we ask a lot of the kind of like oh you know we have a billionaire on the podcast hey you’re super successful what’s your morning routine and they tell us oh you know here’s what i do in the morning you know and people sort of equate that to if i do this i i too will become a billionaire which is obviously not not the right way to think about it but i think if i ask you about your morning routine which i’m guessing is centered around health mental health uh fitness um and sort of regulating your body that that actually will be applicable to more people so take us through what is the uh what is the morning routine i know you’ve talked about this on some other pods but i i bet the majority of our audience has not listened to all your stuff so you know these are the greatest hits let’s let’s do them sure yes so uh i wake up uh for me that’s usually somewhere around somewhere between 5 30 and 6 30 depending on how early i went to sleep uh i wake up and i do an assessment of whether or not i feel rested or not most days the answer is no just because of uh life staying up too late uh stress etc so i do a 10 to 30 minute yoga nidra session first thing in the morning uh yoga nidra is a passive listening you can find these yoga nidra links uh on youtube there’s one which is 10 minute yoga nidra um there’s one that actually made four put out for free called um nsdr non-sleep deep breaths that’s a 30 minute one it’s a script where you just listen it brings your brain into a state that’s like that’s pseudo sleep after that 10 or 30 minute yoga nidra i feel like i’ve slept as much as i need to sleep it’s a really remarkable reset and it it avoids your brain going into this state of planning and organization what we call duration path and outcome in the neural circuitry uh world and keeps it in that kind of liminal state of adjusting and there are some interesting data published showing that these yoganidra meditations if you will are uh can upregulate some of the neurotransmitters in the brain including dopamine that make you prepared for action and so uh they’re very restorative especially in the absence of complete sleep if i feel great i might just get out of bed the first thing is always and i have to be careful because to list every step because sometimes people say wait he doesn’t even go to the bathroom in the morning i mean obviously i go right foot left foot to the bathroom then i use the restroom then i go downstairs i drink water i hydrate and i go outside and i get some sunlight in my eyes for 10 to 30 minutes foundational absolutely critical practice when i don’t do it for more than two days in a row i start messing up all sorts of aspects of my life and most people are not doing this even on cloudy days do it don’t wear sunglasses unless you have a medical reason why you need to it’s fine to wear corrective lenses or contacts you don’t need to stare directly at the sun or see the sun rise and these are the questions i most often get this is why i’m hitting these as bullet points and if you wake up before the sun rises flip on as many lights as you can in your space if you want to be awake in your artificial light environment and then once the sun is out go outside i don’t care if you’re in the depths of scandinavian winter the sun comes out at some point some people might need a daylight simulator but the discussion about daylight simulators is usually an excuse to avoid having to just go outside and get sunlight in your eyes for 10 to 30 minutes you can check your phone if you want or bring the newspaper if people still read those or a book i usually bring a journal and i write down some things that i want to do that day and try and make sure that i’m clearing away some of the clutter um if you have a dog you could do this while walking etc and then i sometimes will combine this with a walk optic flow when you’re just walking through space not looking at anything like your phone or anything in particular that optic flow is known to suppress a circuit in the limbic system that involves the threat detection centers it is very calming to walk through space and it reduces your overall levels of anxiety many people just being indoors not getting sunlight uh not getting enough sleep life is stressful they’re not doing this so basically all of that can be accomplished in one hour it’s wake up yoga ninja for 10 to 30 minutes use the bathroom drink some water of course all the basic biological functions what about um thianine and coffee okay so i don’t ingest theanine during the day i ingest it as part of a sleep cocktail before sleep some people will take l-theanine with coffee it’s now in many energy drinks because it uh takes away some of the jitters that it’s a mild sedative and it takes away some of the jitters that caffeine can induce i don’t drink any caffeine until 90 minutes or ideally 120 minutes after i’ve woken up for the following reason uh during sleep you well during wakefulness you and the longer you’re awake adenosine builds up in your system caffeine is an adenosine antagonist functionally i realize it’s a competitive agonist for you aficionados but it it basically blocks the adenosine receptor functionality so to speak but when that caffeine wears off you’re gonna get a big crash because there’s gonna be a surplus of adenosine by waiting 90 minutes to two hours to ingest caffeine 90 minutes or two hours after waking to ingest caffeine it’s a little bit of a struggle to learn how to do this but your natural adenosine system that adenosine tapers down very very low as a consequence and you don’t get that rebound in the afternoon i drink mate a yerba mate tea i love it um there’s a great br i don’t like that the uh really smoky ones i have no business relationship to any yerba mate company by the way but the one i love is by i don’t know who this person is or if it’s even a person’s anna park it’s a really delicious one it comes loose leaf and um it’s very high caffeine content so you don’t need very much of it and it also has a lot of what’s called glp-1 glucagon like peptide 1 which is actually being used now as an anti-diabetes and obesity drug there’s all sorts of great things about glp1 upregulates dopamine receptors etc so i’ll drink mate starting about 90 minutes after i’m awake that’s kind of my morning but after the walk i go inside i i do try to avoid social media at that point maybe a quick check of 10 minutes i said i’ll even set an alarm um and then on a phone or computer typically on a phone i’d like to move more to the computer but i’ve been transit a lot these days and um you have to uh be thoughtful obviously but i think maybe 10 minutes on social media but i want social media to continue to be a pleasure and because of the dopamine system and we can talk about that i don’t want to get i don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of someone else’s psychology or neurology i want to stay in my own frame the orientation i have in the early part of the day with that notebook is i want to be in my own mental frame i’ve just slept during sleep is when we have neuroplasticity the actual rewiring of neural connections occurs during sleep i’m a big believer in the subconscious and you’re when you wake up you are now in a position to extract whatever it is that these new neural circuits have have figured out about the previous day and days events and so if i immediately bombard myself with sensory experience or input or distractions i’m not able to do that so this morning for instance i’ll just give an example i’m preparing an episode of the podcast on time perception i’ve been reading a lot about this and i woke up this morning went outside with the notebook and just sat there and then realized that there’s a way to organize this episode that has to do with frame rates and sort of slow motion versus fast motion cognition or hopefully it’ll be clear by time the podcast happens it’s not fully formed but that can be so i wrote that down thought great and then um i’ll move into some more typical type work uh it’s great if you can avoid email until after 12 noon but that’s very hard for a lot of businesses so i will usually do a brief check in on email critical items but then i like to write so i will i’m working i am working on a book finally i will work on scientific papers on grants on reviewing papers i try and make that pretty heavy intellectual lifting um and take that until about noon and then i’ll i’ll look into and then we can talk about you know food and other things at this point i haven’t eaten anything do you ever so you have not eaten till noon but one thing that you met did not bring up and i’m wondering do you have a family uh no i have a relationship and i had a dog until recently he passed away so i i do understand people have different things yeah i have different constraints he was a big part of my morning routine i had this big 90-pound bulldog mastiff named costello and we would slowly do our walk we’d get the sun together animals are perfectly happy to do these because these are very innate behaviors but no kids no children you know who are children in my life i’ll say that but but i don’t have any children yeah you remind me of henry rollins except his except his jaw goes to about here right you know like henry’s head is like this big right sean do you know who henry rollins is no one time i shot okay shawn doesn’t know who dolly parton is he didn’t know who jimmy buffett was sean doesn’t know like white people [ ] um and so we’re gonna put this in the category of white people [ ] henry rollins was he was it black flag that he was the lead singer of yeah so well all right i have to be careful not to go down this path too i mean i’m a big ian mackay fan so minor threat right then minor threat and then there was black flag so and yes but rollins was part of black flag um and uh he was early in the punk rock scene to get into lifting weights a lot ian and those guys were straight edge straight edge means different things in different eras but at that time it meant no alcohol no drugs it’s pretty firm stance in the 80s compared to uh the rest of the culture yeah um i don’t know henry i don’t know ian um but i listen to minor threat all the time but sean so henry is like this guy he’s like this punk rocker he’s like he might be in his 60s now but probably he basically like was singing punk rock but he would didn’t drink or anything and he started lifting weights so he was like uh kind of like a meathead a little bit and not a bad way but he was like jacked and now at this point in his life he’s completely single he doesn’t have kids or anything and he’s a poet and he’s an actor and he’s just look kind of like a renaissance man where and if you google him you’ll recognize him did you google him he’s uh he’s like you’ll definitely recognize him he was um in he was he’s sometimes in movies sons of anarchy things like that and anyway just this like really really interesting guy and he’ll go in like a ted talk or something like that and he’ll just talk about his philosophy on anything he’s kind of like mike tyson a little bit he just kind of like every time he talks it’s just like wisdom um anyway uh huberman has this like uh just like henry rollins vibe a little bit and that’s why i was asking about kids because you’re this interesting guy who’s kind of like i s in my head i picture you as this like guy who’s alone intensely studying and trying to figure out like crack a problem and i think that that’s really in that’s just like an interesting part of you at least yeah in my head that’s what i’m making you up as sure i mean i i in the spirit of um authenticity but not over sharing uh what i can say about this is um i mean i’m blessed with great friendships i’ve always i think because of that skateboarding punk rock era because it was mostly guys back then i have a community a lot of friends who you know swim who work out who uh play music i’m really good friends with a guy named michael muller who’s a photographer who does all the marvel stuff and um i’ll train with him i train i’m sometimes up at uh laird hamilton and gabby reese’s pool i like those workouts they’re good friends of mine when i’m down there but yes i at this point in my life um i live in a somewhat remote area uh i have a gym and a sauna and a cold dunk i spend a lot of time with the books i i’m dying to get another dog and i do live that kind of monastic lifestyle um i do have a relationship and that’s great and uh you know the children thing is interesting because i started off studying brain development and neuroplasticity and brain development and so let’s just say that if i do something i do it a hundred percent so i have no children now but if i do have kids i i genuinely want five of them i want a big family or none at all so that’s uh so that’s a plan we should talk because you’re you’re kind of your specialty is around the eye right and i’ve heard you say this before and i’m gonna i is essentially part of the brain that exists outside of the the sort of the cranium where the rest of the brain is stored it’s actually like you know that’s right it is the same is it what the same tissue or it’s like developmentally that it like kind of segregated at some point but it’s basically it’s the only part of your brain that’s like facing the world out that’s right uh you got you got several points there right and none of them wrong these two bits are two pieces of your central nervous system they got extruded out of the skull or we should say out of the cranial vault because technically they’re still in the skull um extruded out of the cranial vault during development and they are the way that your brain figures out where it is in space and time right um by the rising and setting of the sun and the changing of the of the amount of light throughout the year regardless of where you live and uh they are responsible for delivering 40 percent of the inf uh let’s just say 40 of the brains real estate is devoted to vision in some way or another we are incredibly visual animals uh especially even in blind people that real estate for vision that’s in the back of the head the so-called occipital cortex is overtaken by areas that respond to touch and hearing that’s why they’re so good at tactile and hearing but incited individuals vision is the predominant way not just that we represent and see objects around us oh blue car um tall good looking woman or man whatever it is it’s also the way that we orient ourselves in space and time and that we set our frame rate um and we can talk about this but essentially you when as you move through life you’re either batching time in big chunks or in small chunks and that has to do with how you’re viewing the visual world so you’re either thinking in slow motion or thinking it fast depending on your visual environment that’s probably a little abstract but yes these two bits are brain outside your cranial vault why you say kind of in the morning you want to go you know one of the key things of your morning routine was get outside let the sun hit your eyes it’s basically alerting the body that hey the sun is up kickstart all your start your engines because it’s daytime is regulating that way and i think there’s different things throughout the day that you’ve talked anxiety maybe help you go to sleep and um i’ll give you kind of two questions that came from the audience that when i tweeted out that you were coming on they’re both in the same vein and so one question is um we talk a lot on this podcast about the 80 20 right we are fans of the shortcut uh shortcuts get a bad rap around the world uh you know it’s sort of seen as the the lazy i don’t care thing to do but in many ways a shortcut is great a shortcut is basically saying how do i identify the highest leverage points that if i did those i would get maybe the biggest impact or how do i get the results i want faster instead of slower and so what would be the 80 20 meaning if you could change for all the people who are listening to this right so imagine a hundred thousand people listening to this right now if you could implant sort of one or two behavior changes that they could do in the day so maximum of two which two would you pick that you think have the highest roi the highest return uh for the investment of what it takes to do them what do you think would make people happier it doesn’t matter anything that’s anything to make you feel better have a yeah whether it’s improve your health or improve the way you feel throughout the day uh what would be the one or two that you would point to as like you’re kind of yeah so you know it’s a great question i think we need to think about foundational practices um and the two things that set the foundation for optimal mental and physical functioning are going to be really good sleep and really good mental frame and mental frame is going to be the ability to toggle between different states of mind and so let me give you the practices first so that i don’t get accused of being an intellectual to the point of um you know curing insomnia right during this podcast the first one is that morning sunlight in your eyes should be a non-negotiable thing 360 days out of the year if it’s raining stand under an overhang i’m very unsympathetic to that well i wake up and it’s early and then i gotta drive to work stand outside for five minutes i i don’t you know i i got plenty of rest last night so i’m not ornery about this but i’ve grown a little bit exhausted of that well you know i can’t do that because i’ve got kids right take them outside with you they need this too that sets a cortisol increase in the morning which is a healthy cortisol increase that provides wakefulness triggers your metabolism in the proper direction if that cortisol spike happens too late because you didn’t view light then you step out during noon too often remember one day is no big deal but step out in the sunlight too late off too often late in the day you have a delayed cortisol spike which is associated with insomnia depression there are good data on this so get that morning sunlight 360 days out of the year you will thank me i promise um everything gets better now it’s a slow subtle shift it’s not like popping you know 1000 milligrams of l-tyrosine and drinking a double espresso and going to the gym it’s not a it’s not um it’s a foundational practice so i like to think of it as it raises the tide so that your boat can leave harbor that’s how i think of it rather than oh this is like putting another outboard motor on on my vessel okay so that’s the first one and the second one is a little bit of a broader category but it gets sleep right you have if you’re until you’re sleeping well 80 of the time or more get your sleep right and for this i can just defer people we do have a newsletter it’s completely free but we have our privacy policy we don’t share your email it’s at hubermanlab.com just go to newsletter all the prior newsletters are listed there’s the key tips for sleep you can watch the master your sleep episode or you can just download that 12 steps for optimal sleep yes there is a segment on supplementation with some of the considerations and warnings there’s also sections on non-sleep deep breast protocols links to those so get your sleep right and get that light er in your eyes early in the day if you’re a blind person there’s another protocol i’ve done some work with blind people to try and help them with this many blind people still maintain the cells in their eyes that can reset the can set these mechanisms what’s the mental framework yeah so mental frame is something that i don’t think has been formalized in the kind of health and fitness uh optimization sean’s really good at that by the way like sean shawn is very good at that where he he does a really good job at deciding what what frame he’s going to be in uh i put it differently my my the number one priority my number one mission the thing i work on is not even my bit being able to being able to be in the state of mind i want so which is basically being able to experience the experiences i want the way i want to beautiful i just made it my top priority in life so then i started to get good at it because i realized oh [ ] this is the cheat code this is like you know you’ve got stressed out uh billionaire over there and then you’ve got you know joyful uh single mom over here and like what’s which quality of life do i actually want well i want the one where my state of mind uh is in these states that i enjoy and not fear anxiety stress depression not these other states that i’m trying to uh not have as that’s my quick quick rant on yeah no it’s great mental frame is is is so key and um most i will say uh and i want to be very respectful of everything all the work that’s preceded when i showed up um but you know a lot of the stuff that’s out there in the self-help and business literature it frankly is kind of nipping at the margins of some of this stuff like um and look i don’t want to throw out names because it becomes disparaging i think the one person who really deserves a nod who’s truly a pi they’re two people who are incredible pioneers in this space and one is cal newport right so so good they can’t ignore you is incredible book everyone should be required to read that book um deep work is this i’m essentially paraphrasing some of the protocols from deep work but cal who i don’t know have never met but have great respect for um it’s a computer science professor uh back east um uh it’s about setting mental frame and context switching is dangerous which book which which book are you saying so he has a book so good they can’t ignore you which was written some years ago and that was more towards like not trying to find your passion but getting really good at skills um but deep work is an excellent book um he has he’s not on social media but he has given some ted talks um and that book is about uh getting in the right frame it’s sort of like it’s a lot about flow right it’s about not succumbing to distractions so you can do work that actually moves the needle but that’s not what you’re talking about is it i thought that you were talking no so yeah then there’s another one which is a world without email that he wrote recently here’s the key essence of the cal newport work okay the the key essence of it as it relates to mental frame is that the brain is extremely good at end the body at context switching like i could be doing this podcast right now and if a fire alarm goes off or someone comes knocking on the door i can switch up my context and respond to that but 90 of the work that we are moves the needle meaning that we are rewarded for or that enriches professional life and relationships it we used to talk about this about mindfulness and presence but it’s really about getting the brain to start doing certain operations more uh in a more facile way and this is why habits are important but because going to the gym is different than reviewing a paper or writing a scientific paper is different than podcasting or being a guest on a podcast for that matter so what happens is early in the day when you get the download from sleep you identify a few things that are key you’ve already you’re starting to funnel your neural networks toward what i’m calling frame setting and what you’re not doing is allowing something that came in from the external environment to adjust your frame so you get a depth of connection with the work a depth like i knew i was doing this podcast today at noon and i wasn’t walking and thinking about it but i set that as a as a goal post and because i wrote it down my brain is orienting toward what i need to do so that when we clip on we’re ready to go and so mental frames are very important context switching is deadly i’m stealing cal’s word so forgive me cal um some people will put freedom the the computer program so that they are not able to engage with the internet um this device which i’ve turned off or i guess it is on but it’s on airplane mode for the podcast i try and keep away from me for the first half of the day very hard very hard especially when you need to post on social media but i try and i want to have here’s the goal in the morning to make this simple i want to have one 90-minute block that i completely conquer that i that is where i experience immense resistance to do something other than what i’m doing but that i stay in noodling away or gnawing away would be the better word at writing something or reading something or trying to comprehend something and you have to be very careful the moment you walk to the restroom and then maybe like wash your hands and look yourself in the mirror and then you’re like oh you know i got this weird hair growing on my cheek or something you’re starting to switch mental frame and so 90 minutes seems like nothing but it is remarkable what you can accomplish with this but the more important aspect is that in that exercise of getting good at what we call no-go operations in the brain you have go and no-go operations in pushing aside things and enforcing those blinders you’re able to bring that same mental frame to other things later in the day and in life and you’re able to engage it much quicker it’s sort of like if you’re a car you drive a car and you’ve never been up to 110 miles an hour you don’t really know how to get around a a semi in front of you that’s breaking fast and you’re on a downhill but when you have to do it you can do it you’re comfortable at speed and you’re comfortable breaking and so that this mental frame thing is not just about the work you’re able to do in that 90 minutes it’s about getting better at doing deep work even for shorter bouts because as the day goes on we all have this experience right things start coming in we start getting bombarded and we’re starting to get that that kind of fragmentation of our of our goals and we’re kind of getting pulled off and some people that the the peak time is in the afternoon some people it’s in the morning some people play at night but you’re getting yanked off center and so you have to be able to recognize just how delicious and effective that state is and then you can apply it later and i’ll let people use their imagination but this comes into into use in many aspects of life that have nothing to do with work okay like being able to stay at that at that groove with somebody or in some interaction or on a run i mean you know use your imagination this is the the important thing is it’s all the same circuit it’s this engagement of the prefrontal cortex which is saying duration path outcome meaning what how long is this gonna how long should i do this what path should i take what outcomes am i getting in real time and not getting pulled off center by someone else’s dpo as i call them dpos in incidentally or not so incidentally i’ve been fortunate enough to do some work with the special operations community in the canada and the u.s in addition to those guys being really good at shoot move and communicate the really exceptional ones know how to flip this switch on we think of it as like grit resilience and mental toughness and yes they’re all gritty but they’re a lot of gritty people out there the difference is the ability to take your environment narrow that environment and be effective and cut a fine slice through something and then stop and move to something else that’s a mental operation that involves multiple circuits multiple neurotransmitters we couldn’t say just dopamine just epinephrine or something like that it’s gonna be that but a bunch of other things too and so 90 minutes like learn that 90 minute battle and it takes time and then you get very very good at so i’ll podcast for two hours i drop into that that’s the state i’m in when i podcast two quick questions one what do you suck at because when i talk to you i’m incredibly intimidated because uh when it comes to mental health and physical health and emotional health i’m like i’m so inadequate because well i like i i read your watch your youtube to see like you know i stink at this therefore i want to learn what you’re saying so i can be better and then and when i hang out with you now i’m like this guy’s got it together i know that’s not the case you’re a human you’ve got issues just like me that’s not the case so i want to know what do you struggle with and also do you just have loads of people dropping in your dms hitting on you because i hear you talking i’m like this guy he’s probably or is it all just dudes is it all just a bunch of dudes like instead of you pictures of like a mole on their back asking what they what you think it is um how do you know i don’t find moles on backs incredibly fast i’m just kidding every doctor has that they just all my doctor friends it’s all just half of us say like hey what do you think this lump exactly um so okay so um just to make sure i close the hatch on that so you asked for two tools i gave three morning sunlight master your sleep you can see that newsletter uh for that the tools and then this 90 minute bat and look some days it goes better than others but remember it’s not just about what you accomplish it’s about getting into those frames and you’re controlling it this is i guess i wish i had said this before is that you are setting the beginning middle and end of that frame that’s what’s key it’s not happening because someone else said game time noon on sunday and you’re showing up anyone can do that with some practice what you’re learning how to do is is flip the switch you’re learning how to engage that but you have to be very judicious in your use of this circuitry you can’t do it for 12 hours a day so that’s when i do email and all the other stuff okay like 290 minute bouts baby um one last point about that and then i’ll tell you what i suck at um but there isn’t time in the universe to get all of it um there’s a second newsletter there which is about optimizing learning and plasticity that touches into some of the details and some free links and protocols related to that also at the newsletter it’s the october newsletter okay so um what do i suck at oh goodness like what’s your struggles i mean i imagine now that you’re famous your instagram probably and your twitter are like blowing up so maybe you’re it’s hard to keep track of your email and stay on top of that i don’t know i’m projecting yeah so um three things that have been helpful for uh this but okay i’m dreadfully poor at communica at follow-up communications i’m really bad i i really like comments i try and respond especially on instagram i like to give people if you ask a professor a question they’re going to give you an attempt at an answer whether or not it’s accurate or not they’re going to try they’re going to try and get it right um so i have to control my impulse to respond to everything just for sake of time so i can do the big important things um i’m a terrible cook i’m an absolutely terrible cook i mean i um i’m fortunate that i have someone in my life who’s an exceptional cook but i am an absolutely dreadful cook i mean i can i could destroy toast i just don’t get it right i don’t have the patience or do you eat really no so my diet’s pretty pretty clean it’s basically um i do low carb i’ll eat some nuts and stuff in the morning if i’m hungry i don’t make a big deal i put salt in my water which kills your hunger a lot of the time a lot of people get shaky they think they need sugar your your electrolytes are low just put some sea salt or a little pinch of salt and water drink it like oh and go another two hours and your brain functions great blood volume goes up um so well you know i think we’re gonna i think 2022 is going gonna be the year that salt comes back uh science magazine has done a lot about the hypertension stuff if you have hypertension check with your doctor but you know um i eat a low carb throughout the day um so meat and salad maybe i might have a little bit of rice or something if i train i do exercise i train in the morning at some point usually i prefer to do it early but i find some time where i do one hour of exercise every it’s weight train run like one day weight training one day run one day weight train one day run i take one full day off each week i never train for longer than an hour after warming up i hit it as hard as i can because i can’t seem to come off the gas pedal and uh that’s my my thing i’ve been doing that for 35 years so i’m 46 now so 32 years sorry what is um but i was going to ask you one one related question which is you talked about health and kind of like you kind of mentioned you intermittent fast basically you don’t eat till noon yeah about that and you train a certain way and when it comes to health there’s like you know there’s a high carb diet there’s a low carb diet there’s there’s meat is good meat is evil there’s this is you know uh weight training is good weight training is horrible cardio is good cardio is bad uh so there’s sort of this like bombardment of different side info and i think you know what you’re trying to do is get to the source of it get to the truth of things what is one piece of conventional wisdom that you disagree with or maybe it’s hipster wisdom something that’s a fad or a trend right now that you you say hey pump the brakes on that that might be able to help some people out so what’s something that’s you hear a lot but you don’t you don’t buy it or you don’t agree with her you think it actually might be harmful sure um i hate to always back pain a little bit but i have this thing about thoroughness of answers so forgive me i’ve got a little bit of a ocd on this um uh i i’m terrible at cooking so i suck at cooking um and i’m not a good writer i’m not a bad writer but verbal in exchange is how i do best so i i solve this problem i write into i i dictate into voice uh voice memos and then i uh put it on what’s at rev.com they have a lot of my personal income and then i i sculpt from there and um because i’m not a very good writer so and i’m a terrible musician i love music i’m i can’t play a chord to save my life um and i that’s okay i’ll live with that so i’m terrible at a lot of things sam um and um and if you talk to any of my ex-girlfriends that they you know they’ll give you their take on what i’m good at and what i’m not good at you know um but trust me there are plenty of things i’m like world-class failure at and um i don’t try and hide those but i think i’m glad you asked the question because um look i don’t have it all figured out um i’ve been greatly inspired i just want to give a nod to tim ferriss who have know only through the podcast interaction that podcast four hour four hour work week four hour body um especially had a tremendous impact in accelerating my career in science because i was able to focus on things that really matter maybe not for just four hours but just the principles in those books i think we should all be rereading those books they’re so damn good and um yeah so okay um the diet thing i do low carb during the day and then i eat carbohydrates at night i like starch i like pasta and salad i try and limit my protein at night because it makes me so sleepy and i get into really great sleep uh by eating my starches later in the day usually around 8 8 or so i eat dinner and then i go to sleep around 10 30 or so i’ll have a snack sometimes if i want one but generally i don’t want one um and that’s really really key because if i’ve trained early in the day and i’m running around like crazy i’m also burning up a lot of glycogen i want to repack my glycogen so i can train in the morning so i tend to like to train uh early in the day okay so what’s out there well first of all the um the nutrition space is a disaster it’s an absolute disaster so much so that i’m already preparing for the attack about what i’m about to say which is a well accepted truth in science uh there’s a paper from chris garner um slab at stanford showing that as long as people ingest fewer calories than they burn you’re going to lose weight regardless of whether or not those calories are in a low carb regimen or vegan regimen or pure meat regimen etc so calories in calories out is a foundational principle uh i’ve been accused of saying different but the fact of the matter is it’s true now the calories outportion is going to be regulated by a number of things basal metabolism how much you exercise are you hormone augmented are you well what’s what’s the controversial thing that you you’ve just said though i don’t even know well so so in the nutrition space there’s this other idea the other idea it’s grounded in some uh rationale which is like for instance when you eat uh animal protein like chicken or beef or fish there’s a metabolic cost there’s a there’s a calories out equation from the digestion and utilization and protein and use of that yeah but that seems like a rounding error no it’s not huge but it’s very different than if you were talking about um equivalent number of calories from from starch um so it now there but there are hormonal effects of of biased what i call bias diet so i eat a macronutrient complete diet includes fats and proteins and and carbohydrates carbohydrates are sort of on an as-need basis so if i’m training a little less i might eat a few fewer of them etc the the nutrition space is a mess because everyone has to eat and people have different preferences and so a lot of the stuff that you see out there really just geared toward finding a match with an audience that prefers plants or prefers meat or prefers to fast having explored the fasting science and literature there’s nothing wholly about fasting that provides autophagy the cleaning up of dead cells i mean low-calorie diets will do that also even if you’re not so-called fasting but there are it appears some benefits to having periods of each 24-hour cycle where you’re not ingesting calories um independent of the total number of calories so the biggest issue i have that the mess that i see out there that i hope will get resolved people are using social media and uh a certain type of he said she said they said we said to amplify controversies that don’t really exist right i’m willing to bet for instance i’ll just state my stance on this that eating more plants and less meat forgive me paul saladino he’s a friend of mine and you know he’s the carnivore md he’s got great data to support what he’s got but i like plants i’m gonna eat a salad am i gonna die maybe but i’m eating my salad but i’m also gonna eat a steak and so it’s almost like crazy when we start talking about this like are we really talking about this here’s what i’d like to see the carnivore md it’s this guy on instagram so my name do you know who uh you know the perfect keto guys andrew i know of them yeah so anthony is lives across the street from me and then justin has been on this podcast a bunch okay um and then there anthony and this other guy went to somewhere in africa i forget to see how this tribe lives eating mostly just meat and some honey and that other guy his name is paul he’s got this instagram handle shown called carnivore md and basically he pretty much only eats meat organs and like butter just animals yeah he’ll do honey and some some berries and stuff look very smart guy and people will come the battles on the internet like does dietary cholesterol it impacts serum cholesterol is syrian cholesterol um impacting testosterone or not i mean it’s it’s so crazy but the reason it’s crazy is not because it isn’t a valid conversation i mean we all have to eat and people want to live a long time and feel vital it’s crazy because there’s really no field it’s not like vision science or stress science or sleep science or um you know cognitive psychology there’s no field it’s bringing together people with very diverse frameworks trying to resolve the same problem and so it’s sort of like if i were to be in uh a discussion or agreement with someone who’s a philosopher i don’t do philosophy i don’t know the principles of philosophy so i think that the issue on the internet right now is a big one who are the experts i mean we’ve seen this with everything related to kovid right who are the real experts are they the people with government jobs are they the people who who are you know mds is it phds i think what i would like to see more of what i know i’d like to see more of are more panel discussions this is one thing that isn’t happening on podcast as much as it could panel discussions where people can get to the heart of the matter by combining physicians scientists and practitioners i do understand the frustration and the angst of people who’ve devoted a career to being in the trenches of doing stuff and then someone who has an md or uh writes a book and comes along and says hey i’ve solved weight loss or i’ve solved it by way of eliminating one macronutrient which by the way is not what paul saladino is saying i just want to be clear that i um that’s i’m not pointing anything at him directly when i say that so i think that um it’s a kind of a free-for-all right now nutrition is the worst um but in terms of the battles but there are some shining uh bright lights in that space um for instance dr andy galpin is an exercise physiologist who’s done work with a lot of athletes he’s the professor cal state fullerton in terms of training regiments he’s just for endurance and for strength for female athletes and for male athletes for the everyday person he’s got his content is just so damn solid um and grounded in mechanism all the way from muscle sarcomeres to this is how long you should rest between sets if this is your goal um and then in the nutrition space i’ve found what works for me which is this low carb starting around noon and then gradually transitioning into uh higher carbohydrates because i eat for health but i mainly eat for mental and physical functioning i’m paying attention to how i feel and i want to be able to do my work and so i think that’s very important too and it’s a missing piece of the equation which is it you know i wouldn’t survive a day doing uh you know six small meals of you know each macronutrient i’d be i’d have to cook uh you know you can break the population up into kind of these six or ten you may this might be the ideal diet or optimal diet for you or do you think it is hey the solution you have actually might work for everybody i like do you think that i know it’s not not to the t of like you know exactly what you eat but in terms of on one side you got completely plant-based on the other side you got completely carnivore another side is just sort of no carb or low carb or slow carb right there’s all these different varieties do you think the do you think when it comes to humans knowing what is the optimal is it that there are completely different configurations for different groups of people or that actually for humans there actually would be one sort of optimal diet and then i have to assume that there’s going to be some genetic bias towards certain things working so for instance i lucked out but i also suffer because i don’t like alcohol it just makes me go to sleep so i don’t care if there’s alcohol or not some people really like a drink um that’s probably genetic um it just doesn’t it makes me feel bad it’s not just that it doesn’t make me feel good it makes me feel bad do you like to get [ ] up at all what do you do you have like drugs do you like anything i don’t really no i drugs no i i mean you don’t even smoke weed no i i don’t smoke weed i never liked i never liked marijuana or alcohol very much i’m my drug is learning and adrenaline i do i’ve had to work on the adrenaline part i’ve uh there’s stories for another time i’ve i put myself into some um unhealthy situations and dangerous situations but i i come alive with dopamine and adrenaline in my so you don’t know so you don’t do any drugs you don’t you really don’t drink i don’t drink and do drugs either but my advice is i’ll eat like a whole box of twinkies when i want to party that’s like i’m like yeah like i’m playing it like two weeks out i’m like let’s go eat a whole burger party you know i would say about 85 of the time i eat clean but um but i’ll eat bread i love bread and i love butter on it you know basically bread is a vehicle for butter in my case you know um and i now watch the plant people are gonna come out they there’s a video they already came after me like hubert says butter is look if you increase your fats your saturated fats a bit do the blood work you’ll watch your your serum testosterone go up and we could talk about testosterone if you want um but it’s not necessarily good for your heart i didn’t say it was good for your heart i said it’s good for your vitality which is different in the short run than in the long run but in terms of vices i like caffeine i do use certain stimulants over-the-counter stimulants like i’ll take l-tyrosine these days i take 300 milligrams of alpha gpc if i really want to laser in i don’t do it any more than two three days a week maximum and that’s also in that second toolkit uh newsletter um that and phenylethylamine or phenylalanine um those two combined and you’re you’re in a you’re in a focused tunnel um but i don’t touch modafinil i don’t touch stimulants i don’t do recreational drugs um when i was in college sure i mean i i partied a bit but also you know i don’t need any chemical to say exactly what’s on my mind um or to withhold uh some of the things that are on my mind so i i’m i just not been my thing and uh but also i’m generally training in the morning and i generally want to get work done you know look i always admired people that could have a couple beers and relax because it’s such a big part of our culture um but that just didn’t that’s not the way i went um you asked about uh in terms of diets and genetic differences well you know this is the same thing with sleep and chronotypes we have people that prefer to stay up late and wake up late and people that prefer to wake up early and then it’s a fairly normally distributed population uh what should we do about this well for instance um some people probably feel better eating more starches and less protein and maybe more plants and some people look it looks to me like joe rogan’s doing just fine on his elk meat and whatever else he’s eating diet i don’t know i don’t trap he seems like he’s thriving i will say um in full disclosure that the people that i know who are hormone augmented i’m not talking about big bodybuilders i’m talking about people that are taking low dose of of testosterone whether or not to replace something or not they tend to crave or at least eat more proteins um because it increases protein synthesis and um you know that’s me yeah yeah so yeah i’m on it i’m on it now and prior to being on it i i worked on it for i did it i tried doing it naturally for like two years to increase it was like 200 it was so low and that’s slow yeah it was [ ] and it was so low and i was running a company at the time i was so stressed out so i like took time off i ate me i squatted and then i started taking trt and my life changed oh yeah it was so crazy that i started eating more meat and i didn’t do it for body reasons i did it for emotional reasons but my body changed i feel like a professional athlete at 32. it’s pretty crazy how much that changed but what you said on one of your podcasts is it seems true is that means i’ll likely live there’s a likelihood that i will not live as long because there was like some i i don’t know if you said someone else sean they did these studies basically for some reason there was this group where they would castrate you in china um i don’t know if it was like done out of like being like a monk or something like that yeah yeah and these guys didn’t have dicks anymore and they castrated them and balls they they sorry yeah they didn’t have balls anymore yeah and they i mean i didn’t do the experiment nor did i check the data but i was like they lived longer like they they consistently lived longer it’s and and like and so like now that i’m on this i’m like probably maybe i’ll i’ll live to be 90 instead of 95 i don’t know who knows what it’s going to be but it’s a pretty sick life so that’s kind of the sacrifice that i’m making yeah well basically the the idea is that um that your story speaks to is a true one which is that um vitality and longevity are on uh they’re sort of orthogonal to one another they’re not counteracting one another but they’re kind of orthogonal to one another and puberty is the most rapid stage of aging in our entire life and it’s accelerated aging right i mean puberty is aging it’s just that you’re not it’s across the you know you think about it in the context of a portion of the entire life arc so introducing hormones of the sort that were robust during puberty um will accelerate that process you just said that vitality and longevity are orthogonal basically meaning the better and more optimized i want to feel the less i’m going to live not necessarily that if they’re they’re sort of off-center to one another but the they’re not counteracting one they’re not antagonistic so here let me explain and um how this would work in the real world so um if you will let’s use the user’s example you decided to go on testosterone replacement um your your total testosterone you said it was in the somewhere in the 200 nanogram per deciliter range which is uh below the normal reference range so you go on you you’re saying uh and quite aptly that maybe that’s going to shorten your life because of the way that it can negatively affect lipid profiles and things the way it affects the liver there’s a lot of biochemistry there we don’t have time to go into but that’s true however testosterone will also whether or not it’s coming from endogenous sources or from replacement will also increase your energy level and your ability to lean into friction you’re going to be running more you’re going to be able to exercise more so i have done a number of episodes on hormones but one thing that’s really important to understand because i get a lot of questions about this is that well the main effect of testosterone is it makes effort feel good because of the way that it you you it makes you there’s a readiness for challenge of all kinds intellectual challenges the way that i describe to people is i’m like i want to fight all the time and not necessarily fist fight but i just want to be in a battle whether it’s a battle myself sure yeah yeah i want i want fight i want to go fight friction feels good and so um and robert sapolsky the great robert sapolsky was on my podcast he said you they’ve done these experiments also um with in uh ultra with altruistic acts of of friction where people donating money for instance it’s not just beating people up and this kind of thing so um but and i’m not suggesting people run out and get on out onto get on trt i want to touch on that but basically so you could say well my blood lipid profiles are perhaps a bit worse but with that extra energy you can now start exercising four times a week plus you know cardio plus four times a week of weight training and recover with no problem provided you’re doing the other things that you need to do whereas if you weren’t you would probably be depleted there’s a depression component uh and you know your finances would probably suffer these kinds of things now some people do not need testosterone in place i’m gonna just because i think i’m i’m kind of walking around the margins and people are probably wondering all you know is hubermann on trt um is that what this is about i’m 46 years old i didn’t i didn’t touch it until 45 um i went 45 years i’ve talked about some of the supplements that can naturally increase testosterone you’re on trt oh so from i’m 46 now i started on my uh at 40 after 45. but let me um so but but let me explain because i’m actually coming off so that um that so what i did is i’m i’m researching a book so i did 45 years of training and sleep and all the normal things found some supplements that will increase testosterone um that’s the fedoja and tonga ali you can see it on that joe rogan episode i talk a lot about this on the episode with tim ferriss a number of women are taking tonga ali as a way to increase their free testosterone and getting quite good results i don’t have any relationship whatsoever to tonga ali or fadoja company i don’t care if you take it definitely check with your doctor there are some kind of spooky reports out there about fadogia and toxicity of the cells in the in the testes but those seem to be limited to rat studies anyway do your research i’m not telling you what to do um and you’re responsible for your health not me but those supplements done properly from the right sources can increase testosterone by about 200 nanograms per deciliter the most dramatic i’ve ever seen is a is a shift from about 300 to or high twos to like you know eights and nines but when i went but i decided to try trt in this in a small dose spread throughout the week um my testosterone at that time was already sitting in the high eights so i was doing fine and you i did as an experiment for part of this book and it changes your mental frame it makes you more self-directed more willing to lean into challenge and counter to the popular belief it makes you calmer this is the thing that people don’t realize it gives you more energy but it makes you calmer the in primates non-human primates and in humans stressed angry people are the ones that are in the kind of low-to-mid range of testosterone typically typically these are averages from a few studies and i always thought i always thought well it just makes me more confident and confident men don’t get upset easily you know like if someone’s like yelling at me or like there’s like i i’m my masculinity is not being challenged right now i’m not i’m not that’s why people are like oh so you want to fight all the time like well actually no the opposite if someone gets in my face i’m i’m confident enough that i could i can i can walk away you know what i mean you’re in your own you maintain your own frame you’re not gonna get um pulled off by projection or nowadays the the the buzzword is gaslighting everyone’s gaslighting everybody without really under i i’m very interested in psychoanalysis i’ve been fascinated by this for years and this whole concept of projection is very interesting how do you actually shift someone’s nervous system this is not a good thing but how does one shift their nervous system to change the mental frame of another nervous system it’s very interesting and kind of spooky stuff when you start to think about how your nervous system will frame shift your frame someone else’s frame now this is vital too when your child or your partner comes to you and says i really i’m really stressed about something it requires a an adaptive frame shift and you need to do that people who are autistic who have asperger’s don’t frame shift very well they’re very much in their own frame and they’re very good at certain kinds of things and less good at others people who are highly empathic are susceptible empaths will know to getting yanked down different frame shift pathways such that they can oh my god i haven’t done anything with my life because i’ve been so consumed with so-and-so’s thinking or feelings around things so testosterone makes effort feel good i talk about the effects on the brain let’s leave aside all the effects on the body and yes it might change blood lipid profiles but in general the energy is the component it comprises a neural energy and an activation stance where then it’s a question of what you do with that so if you use that as an excuse to eat a little less well train a little less then you’re no better off and you might be worse off if you use that as an opportunity to lean into life that’s wonderful i i work with a number of professionals and athletes in a kind of consulting um role to assist with some of this of course with an endocrinologist as well new parents for instance who decide they don’t want any more kids and they’re dealing with lack of sleep and all these things oftentimes benefit from that and the relationship can often benefit um for a number of reasons so this is probably a whole other discussion i’d be happy to come on sometime and just talk all about the hormones because it’s all estrogen is key a lot of people in particular men are blocking estrogen when they take trt which is a terrible idea estrogen promotes brain longevity estrogen is good for connective tissues it’s good for libido blocking estrogen is a bad idea in most cases but of course some people are worried about water retention or breast development in males and so they’re blocking estrogen you have to work with an endocrinologist so it’s not testosterone is good estrogen is bad that is absolutely um uh that’s very sophomore thinking you know it’s it’s it’s more complex than that sean did you get your did you get your no but i hit a bunch of people with that uh that’s how i’m going to combat people you’re going to gas light on their sophomore thinking yeah yeah the gas lighting thing is funny because you know gas gaslighting is but basically people are saying that they’re triggering them right gas lighting is something very different and uh having um experience with borderline people that’s a very it’s a challenge both for the borderlines and for the peoples in their lives that’s a real psychiatric challenge so anytime i see these these uh valid psychiatric terms being kind of bastardized on the internet i get i get a little bit um well that’s one of the challenges right like pop science pop you know this sort of like popifying of everything it’ll be more viral right like you know it’s easy to make something viral when you take away this causes that blank statement you know blanket state to actually get yeah hearing that um it depends is not an answer that goes very far but and here’s where i’m hoping there’s a tide change or um which is that if people can understand mechanism they can start to understand a little bit of you know we have this stress system and we hear that stress is bad but you know a brief i just did a podcast episode with duncan french from the ufc performance institute duncan’s work has shown in peer-reviewed studies that short-term stress raises testosterone stress that lasts more than a day or two or training sessions that go more than 90 minutes that depletes testosterone so is stress bad for for reproduction depends so but if people can understand mechanism then they can start to understand hey an ice bath is stress but it will protect you against illness because in the short term adrenaline buffers you against infection because adrenaline is the signal by which your immune system says oh my goodness i need to combat something so if people can understand mechanism then it doesn’t matter if you’re talking about acupuncture cold bath sauna lifting weight sprinting you know bikram yoga people can i believe that people are smart and that if you extend a hand of lend some respect to their intelligence that they’ll come along for the discussion about mechanism and that even if i were to get hit by a bus tomorrow that then they could digest the next wave of information coming to them in a much more nuanced way of course people still need protocol they need a jumping off point and so that’s why my podcast has been mainly about that but i think science and health information on the internet is changing very quickly um thanks i here again i just have to say it was seeing lex friedman’s podcast i don’t know what the equivalent is in the in the finance and entrepreneurial area maybe it’s you guys but in the kind of general landscape of podcasting i saw lex’s podcast for the first time and i thought this guy is having really intense intellectual conversation yeah he’s so good he’s so weird in a cool way he’s so interesting he’s unique he is he’s kind of punk rock i mean lex is very punk rock i mean he’s his lifestyle if you think my lifestyle is unique i mean lex well maybe just get him on the podcast he’s a really i’ll let him do the speaking uh for himself but i think that once someone’s out there doing that it’s very hard for people to follow suit with um the kind of low-level version of that so what i love and i have listened to your podcast so i love about your podcast what i love about ferris and rogan and lex and rich roll and i’m missing a few all right i’m going to regret it later though i’m not remembering these names but um because there are others of course is if if sagar and jetty’s news channel for instance remarkable is that if we all push each other to constantly try and increase the quality and the value per unit time of a podcast even if it’s not just protocols but it’s a style of discourse like we’ve done today that to me is going to elevate the medium as something that is a serious thing instead of just the you know chatter do you uh how big is your audience right on youtube you’ve had 10 months so you’re that’s north of a million what about on uh on podcast uh yeah so well on instagram i think we’re sitting somewhere around like 730 000 followers or something like that um uh but that’s just really i do put out unique content there that separate from the podcast from time to time but um you’re gonna laugh but actually and i’m not cloaking anything i actually don’t tell know i don’t know i don’t know so that’s rob so rob and we have a web a web guy i mean you gotta if i had a guess like five to ten million a month that sounds about right i think it’s on the higher end of that um i think i know that’s right because if it’s about two million per episode in the first couple weeks is that something i don’t know i’m yeah two million you’re at two million an episode i i don’t know i should ask rob otherwise you’re killing sorry do you realize surely tim or whoever has talked to you and joe has talked to you with two million downloads an episode dude you you’re rich you’re very you could be very wealthy i’m shocked that you’re still uh teaching i’m still wearing the same shirt every day yeah i looked up before the podcast average salary before the podcast i was like this guy could easily be banking a few million dollars a year and doing the exact same thing you’re doing now it’s not like you’d have to go shift to doing something else um and i looked at it i thought what do professors make here’s what i looked up stanford professor this is what’s on the internet no idea if this is true or not stanford professor will uh the average professor will make somewhere between 200 to 225 thousand dollars uh per year which is obviously a great living but i thought that’s high for an academic um it doesn’t for a non-md academic oh the pay is is it’s not just stanford it’s ever it’s abysmal um in in the bay area and i want to be respectful people have different needs and costs and um but that’s uh in the bay area that that’s a tough tough life for someone with kids uh you know depends um not tough life but anyway i’m gonna get some haters for this but you know what um come hang out come hang out you know and have you have you enjoyed being famous well okay so a couple of things one about the the um the views i really do need to check with rob on the numbers i don’t know i don’t track that um i know we’re doing well one thing in the business side since you have this audience that um yeah i only advertise products i actually use i’ve been using athletic greens for over a decade right so i love that stuff i don’t we stay with a limited number of advertisers insight trackers i bought this tracker i use i use my code huberman huberman yes we work with thornton thank you uh we work with um athletic greens is is a re for me was a really good supplement it’s the only one i set aside money for as a student in postdoc or as a postdoc and professor because it covered a lot of things so expensive though yeah it i feel better when i take it so that’s why i take it but i get it no it’s it is it’s like 150 200 a month i think there’s a cost there it it yeah so obviously it has to be within the scope of someone’s decisions of around finances but the um sleep cocktail so we work with thorn um because the great thing about thorn is the quality of their supplements is so good that you can actually take less of thorn supplements in my experience and get away with it but there are other great supplement companies out there i’m not here to plug the our sponsors but i do um obviously that’s the way podcasts make money and i pay my staff um which is rob and mike and ian and we have a few others as well i should mention one thing about the the medium and as a business model so i’ve never talked about this but the hubermann lab podcast is but one of several podcasts um under a company that i founded um with rob so david sinclair from harvard genetics yeah professor jones at harvard lifespan right lifespan so he’s launching the lifespan podcast with davidson and you’re owning this yeah i own that brilliant podcast network yeah so um and so we’re working on the front end and back end materials of that me and mike blayback are the creatives on that with that aesthetic and the and it’ll be very different than mine right because david um i mean he’s you know i wouldn’t we’re different david you’re beating you’re building this media business all sitting around longevity and healthy longevity mental and and physical health i don’t know we’ll call it mental fitness that’s a word that we’ve used mental fitness you’re going to crush this this is going to be here thanks well the goal is really that um for instance many professors have excellent information they can share on gut microbiome on addiction on adhd that goes well beyond the depth that i can provide in one of my episodes and so they need to do six or seven episodes but they probably don’t need to do an a podcast in perpetuity and so the idea is to have a set of podcasts that you can come to mine if you like david’s if you like maybe you god forbid you have a relative dealing with parkinson’s and hear from somebody what you can really do about that or alzheimer’s or you have a kid and you want to know what are the science-based practices for getting a kid to sleep and for neuroplasticity in a child well let’s talk to a world expert in that um and and so the the the idea is to have an umbrella for multiple podcasts the huberman lab podcast is but one of those that i plan to continue david’s is going to be the second and we’ve got a third and a fourth that are revving up now and who knows maybe we should do one on um i don’t know some something related to crypto or something i don’t i only know what i know and i know academics i know science and i know medicine and so that’s what i’m going to bring to the table this is awesome this is awesome i had this thank you while back which was i remember thinking about my favorite science uh he was great but he would and i just thought about like his kind of like sphere of impact like he could you know each class had about 20 kids he would teach five classes a day so we teach about 100 kids a day and so you know his reach as like my best teacher growing up was a hundred students a day a hundred students a year essentially and then with the internet i just thought wow this is going to change the best teachers in the world are going to have millions of students and they’re going to make millions of dollars as they should um for being amazing teachers and i’ve always been looking out for and i’ve been investing and every platform i can get my hands on anywhere i can see that teachers are able to do that where they’re able to scale and have millions of students and have because you know if i’m going to learn math or i’m going to learn about nutrition i can either learn locally like that’s the way the world always worked i just learned from my best local teacher that was available to me or now i can learn globally so i can find actually who is the best at not only being an expert but packaging it and conveying it in a way that’s entertaining that’s relatable that’s that fits me right and so you know that’s what you’re doing you’re the perfect example of something i’ve been thinking why isn’t the world moving this way and actually it is it’s just it wasn’t through online school it was through things like podcasting and and it’s more popular in other countries you know china and does a really good job of this they’ve got a we’ve done some chinese teachers who’ve who make tens of millions of dollars a year superstar they’re like musicians and athletes yeah same with india you know sean we have that you sent that you shared with me that really cool photo of a guy in india teaching math and it looked like he was a comedian because there was like uh andre this guy his name is biju no he’s a guy in india i’ll have to check it out teacher he would teach in like local villages and people love learning math from them so he would go to other cities and they would come find him because it had spread through word of mouth eventually he was filling up stadiums free free you know free to attend he was just teaching math on a projector in a 20 000 person stadium and now he created he created an app it’s like a 10 billion dollar education app in india but you know like that was his origin story and i thought that was i love it you know and and i love the model around podcasting because yes you have to tolerate some ads but advertisers are happy consumers are happy and it’s zero cost to consumer that to me is like if ever there was order in in a universe not the universe but in a universe that’s that’s it yes but it it it sucks so do you know what do you know my company at all or did you know my company i’m afraid i don’t know it’s all good so it’s all good so we owned this and then we owned this thing called i started this company called the hustle which was a daily email that reached about 2 million people a day for business news we just sold it to hubspot for many tens of millions of dollars and um we are making you know 20 million dollars on ads so we made a lot of money and the problem with ads is it’s cool when you’re doing it now because you can pick and choose thorn athletic greens you can pick and choose cool [ ] and that’s exactly how we started but then you get staff and you’re like all right we’re gonna try and triple every year and so in order to triple every year like there’s not that many thorns and athletic greens then you gotta go look at like some other [ ] and you’re like well we gotta hit these growth numbers and so it’s so it kind of you i don’t think he worships at the altar of your over your well maybe you know no but you always think about it for example what if i talked [ ] about athletic greens and let’s say they did something kind of wrong and you you you don’t happen well that’s my point that’s exactly my point you will say well i don’t know you know i mean wait it’s even the most honest people and good people you are everyone we’re all incentivized something and so maybe like he would be willing to defend them a little bit more because they’re giving them money which is a natural thing you know what i mean yeah yeah so that is an issue i mean i think that um and we do care about growth um but and the reason we built out a philanthropic arm of this company is because i really i empathize with the struggle that academic scientists live in day to day which is that they don’t have time to do their own research let alone work for the world which is what they’re really hired to do their grants come mainly from public sources so we’re trying to think about ways that we can start to pump some money back into science through the podcast so money coming into the podcast actually represents some of it money going back into the scientific community to do better work we’re starting to explore nfts and some of how that might be incorporated um twitter’s a great place to learn about that i just want to say that the nft landscape and crypto landscape people are so kind it’s like they’re trying to come one it’s kind of all in it kind of reminds me of the early punk rock movement it’s like you they know i’m paying attention to their energy i don’t understand a darn thing about it is punk rock it is very punk rock everybody would love to sell you their token and their currency and why it’s yeah just wait everybody says let me tell you about it because they are we’re all you know selling our own holdings basically interesting wait until you say something bad about them though okay well i i tend yeah i i hope not to do that at least not by accident but i i just noticed that um there’s a there’s i love the diy spirit look i’m a patriot too i’m sure you have an international audience but look my dad’s a first generation immigrant this this country is amazing from argentina so he’s not you know he wasn’t from some place where he was stricken but he came here on a navy scholarship he’s a physicist um you know this is a country where you can make lateral moves it’s hard to ascend all right and we we should acknowledge that not everyone starts in the same place and and the the slope is different for different people no question but you can make lateral moves here and the you know think about this the nobel prize is given each year for instance um the world is big the world of science is big most nobel prizes include or are given to people in the u.s and we have one of the most difficult funding schemes for getting money to do research in this country now compared to third world countries we’re very wealthy in the research realm but compared to other countries where they basically stock the laboratories with money it’s it’s incredible here we have these individual labs like doing little like startup style workshop stuff it’s that grind it’s that leaning into friction i really believe is is the hallmark of future development and so science doesn’t have that we didn’t have a podcast platform or information platform and i’m hoping that my podcast and the others like david’s and the other ones that come out through our company will will soon populate i’d love to see more of this done out there there’s you know there’s some smart guy or gal that is out there thinking like hmm like i’m gonna i’m gonna do the podcast on amphibians because i love frogs and i’m gonna like tell people which terrarium to get and like it’s gonna be the terrarium the podcast and you never know what’s gonna what’s gonna work but i love that spirit the entrepreneurial spirit so it’s what we’re trying to bring well dude thanks for coming on this is badass we um we haven’t done a podcast this long in a long time by the way we had i’ll tell you really quick we had rob dierdick on recently oh yeah and uh he is uh i forget what we were talking about skateboarding and like wealth or something but he’s like the wealthiest yeah rob wouldn’t know me but he’s tight with mike blayback because rob and big big unfortunately passed away um and mike did all the photos for that um and uh yeah look skateboarders if you want to know what’s really cool and how to do the real diy spirit you just skateboarders they just i’m gonna go i’m gonna brat i’m gonna brag after this i’m gonna send you a video of my latest three oh and yeah i can’t i ca i’ve got no tre flip but the um i rat a pool but i’m i’m not i’m not that good dude you’re you’re a badass man i’m i’m so excited to talk to you i feel inspired after having a conversation with you you’re very you’re you’re very interested much bigger deal oh well we got to speak oh well i want to say genuine thanks for having me on i felt immediate resonance i’m very much like a can sense that so i i think it’d be great to get together in person sometimes do people still do that i don’t know are you in california you’re in northern california i split my time now between the bay area and southern california so where are you guys yeah we both we both lived there i lived in san francisco for eight or nine years i just bought a house in texas and so i’m in austin as of now but i’m a little bit nomadic so i’m but well i’m gonna be in austin a bunch because i hang out with lex there he’s going to take me to jiu jitsu again last he lives in austin i’ve never done it before he’s a black belt so i don’t know he lives but dude i have a i have a gym here at my house like a really nice gym and i have people come over and we can lift heavy i lift heavy and also uh we could box i beat people up all the time so if you want to [ __ ] fight right do that we could we could probably i just this is not this is not a uh we probably shouldn’t box i i boxed i had my boxing card and boxed pretty consistently uh various times i’m not very good you don’t get a nose like this do a yoga um let’s not box come on man i got a rower we can do anything you want i’m fit this this is the this is the trt speaking folks um it would be great fun i’ll pass you guys my number by email just let’s text we’re in the room and uh we’ll take it into the real world thank you man great to have you thanks travel never looking back you