Wait, My Intern Became a 21-Year-Old Millionaire?? (#510)

Transcript

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Kind: captions Language: en i remember at one point you’re telling me in slack you’re like these people just offered me 2 million bucks for this yeah I’m like holy [  ] you did it we started the podcast my first million you just made your first two million congrats like I can’t believe this worked out you’re like I’m not going to sell though and I was like wow this guy’s insane and I was like that’s an insane [Music] story all right so I can’t how many times I hear this people will DM me every single day and they’ll say hey I’m just calling my shot right now today I’m I’m a small boy in three years from now I’m gonna be on MFM I’m gonna be on my first million I’m gonna make my first million do an XYZ yeah every single day I get a message like that here’s somebody who actually did it this is isan he was my intern turn guy who’s made millions and millions of dollars lost millions of dollars and had crazy journey in between you were the guy who I created this podcast with yeah you were the guy who the the cover of our podcast he created it um the intro song originally the original intro song he created it you know I didn’t even know how to record audio at the time this guy did all of it um you went from behind the scenes to now you’re on the stage here in my house and we’re going to record this episode so I’ve made it you’ve made it that’s that’s the teaser all right let’s tell the story all right what’s up yeah what’s up what’s up I uh so people don’t know this so you are isan you uh I’ve met I’ve known you since you were 18 years old you still are kind of like 18 years old I yeah yeah yeah I still look like 18 years old yeah you’re 23 now yeah all right so I’m thinking this episode is kind of like your title wasn’t intern but it’s going to be good for YouTube so we’re going to be like intern my intern became a millionaire yeah I wasn’t glorified and like my official title was cheap as stuff but is like kind of like into and by the way I got a good track record with this I don’t know if I’m doing anything but I’m good at picking people because I worked with you at age 18 yeah Steve Barlett 19 maybe 20 uh years old there’s a guy another guy named is Sean who just tweeted out today that he’s like those four months I worked with you were super influential he went from like guy just working someplace now he’s got an eight figureure agency so that was cool yeah uh Danny Miranda worked with me for a little bit people know him in the podcast game now he was with us for a couple months before he started creating contest so I I feel like those two Sean so maybe getting getting people that like sound similar to your name yeah yeah the closer the better actually um all right so you’ve had a crazy run but Let’s do let’s do the history so how did we meet uh well I followed you on Twitter when I was like 12 13 years old I was tweeting my whole strategy was let me get my like like profile picture before do that I’m reintro the the the one part which is yeah one thing that people don’t know is this podcast was started actually not with me and Sam me and you yeah I hit you up on uh Twitter DMS yes yeah and I saw that you were doing a you were a podcast editor for somebody else I knew um I think Corey or angelist or yeah Cory ly and so I I had this idea all right I want to do a podcast I hit you up I didn’t know how old you were but I was like hey do you you want to produce for me then we got on a call I was like oh man this is like a kid somewhere you were at school at the time and I was like will you do you know how how audio works and you’re like yes I got you so the if people see the the cover art of the podcast yeah you made that um the initial like you know 20 episodes or whatever all those intros and all the audio you made that yeah then we started doing business experiments together this was at a time where I was kind of like I think I want to build an audience yeah and I also want to just launch some businesses we launched Ecom businesses we launched a bunch of [  ] together and then we all went off our own ways and then you had a crazy Journey after that where you made millions of dollars lost millions of dollars and all the rest so we’re going to talk about all that let’s start at the beginning so I dm’d you but we you were actually were on Twitter when you said we were what 13 years old 13 years old I followed you I was trying to just get my face like on all these people and because I I’m from Australia right there’s no there’s no Silicon Valley there’s no like VCS and cool angels and all these people so I was like let me this is my Avenue to get to these people um and let me just like even if it wasn’t like a lot of value ad I’ll let me just tweet random [  ] at you guys and I was doing that so if you just go on my Twitter you’ll find tweets of me you know tweeting off to Shan random [  ] and you respond here and there but yeah so that was like when I was yeah literally like 13 14 whatever and then couple of years later when I S the podcast with Cory is when yeah you DMD me and I was like yeah I already know who you are and let’s do this I think your name was I think I found you because your name was also Sean and I was like this is like this is this is it to be I can’t find this client info have you heard of hub spot HubSpot is a CRM platform so it shares its data across every application every team can stay aligned no out of sync spreadsheets are dueling databases HubSpot grow better talk about the start so when we were working together tell me some of the things you remember because I remember I only everyone’s got their own version of History yeah I remember in my head like you know what we were thinking back then but I’m curious and this is our first time catching up in person cuz you live in Australia um and you’re just in town so I you used to live at where I lived I was living in Brisbane you also like way back when lived in Brisbane yeah um so what’s your version of History what do you remember the first thing I remember well I think the first thing I remember is when we were doing the podcast like cover out and stuff I sent you over some like uh you know like here’s version a version B blah blah blah and then you like hold on a second you should add your name to the to the cover yeah I thought I thought that was really cool that that gave like me a lot of confidence like okay yeah this I’m like I’m you know a part of this is as well I remember that was that was a cool thing you did cuz I think maybe that’s some learning there people that higher yeah make him feel special yeah yeah you make them feel special um do that that was that was like a really cool thing I remember um also just like the kind of craziness of like let’s start a crystal store today and then like a few weeks later let’s start this other DC thing like make up make the store 72 hours go off and and do it it was like it was it was like some variation of like an incubator but it’s just like at this time I’m working at twitch I’m earning out my deal we sold the twitch I’m now earning out and I know okay every year I get this vesting check yeah but in the meantime like frankly I was pretty bored inside of a big company I you know it’s not I knew that’s not my longterm and I was like you know on the side here what can I do to entertain myself the podcast was one cool thing I’d always wanted to do and then the other would be like I would meet somebody and I’m like oh this person’s killing it in Ecom yeah yo isan we’re making an Ecom store and I remember for the crystals thing I was like I read some article I saw some magazine like I was trying to look outside of like I don’t look at Tech crunch to get Tech ideas or like business ideas I look I I remember reading like a People magazine and it was like Adele was saying she won’t go on stage unless she has her like rose quartz crystal and I was like what like that’s insane like you who believes in this crap and I Googled it and I was like after Kim Kardashian got mugged she had like a for million doll ring she got mugged and it was like how did you recover she’s like well my crystals really grounded me and I was like and then you see all these celebrities I’m like if again I just think people are sort of like I have this tweet that’s like uh the economy is just smart people paying beautiful people to Market to to to sort of like average people and I was like if all the celebrities are doing this then there’s got to be a bunch of other people that believe in this and so I remember calling you and you’re like the best part about you is your game that’s favorite thing is like if you hire somebody with no experience there a bunch of bad things like I’d be like dude like I haven’t heard from you in two days where’d you go yeah but then on the good side it’d be like he doesn’t know any better so I could just be like hey we’re doing this and it’s going to be we’re going to launch it in two days and you’re probably just like I don’t know is that normal maybe that’s normal right like yeah cuz besides this like I never I’ve always been working for like internet people I’ve never had like a traditional go to an office and right and like I was I remember the time I was like uh I’m like I’m going to finish uni should I go and be a consultant for like some Bank whatever yeah you ask me so because yeah I just didn’t know what the other I guess I was just scar cuz I didn’t know what the other world was like I was like all right this is kind of right normal and doing this so um so crazy stuff like just yeah creating different Ecom stores or different experiments we did like a newsletter the good terrible bad very badude that was like that one top five of Ro right mil Ro milk Road became a successful newsletter company but I guess before that I don’t even remember that we we did launch a newsletter called the the no good very bad terrible something something something newsletter I don’t know what why we called it that but we basically were launching a bunch of experiments and I remember at the time one one of my takeaways from that is that Crystal Store for example I didn’t even know what winning looked like so one problem with an experiment it’s easy to use this word experiment but the way a science experiment works you have a hypothesis you’re like I believe this then you run the test and it either confirms it or it doesn’t yeah but I was using the word experiment wrong which was like I’m just going to try a bunch of [  ] without actually knowing like what is the win condition yeah what is the success or failure condition of this and so like now that I look now that I actually have an e-commerce like our e-commerce business now you know is is doing very well it’s a 8 figure e-commerce business now that I know what an e-com is looks like I can go back and think about our our Crystal Store actually was doing very well like I just didn’t know so for example we were running Facebook ads and the key metric for all e-commerce businesses is your row ad your return on ad Spin and I think we were getting like 1.7 yeah well like the Rocks we were selling these rocks for like 50 60 they call they’re CST yeah CST and yeah no I remember like like the first few hours we got that that Shopify ding amazing like that was I mean most people start up a store and they don’t have sales for like a couple of days or whatever or weeks and so yeah it I think out problem was like just didn’t continue we didn’t continue exactly cuz now that I look back it was like 1.7 to 2X and I remember thinking oh it’s supposed to be 3 or 4X I think cuz I had heard some idiot saying that somewhere and I just thought that’s what it is and so I was like H I guess this is bad turn it like shut it down let’s do the next thing uh you know in retrospect I you know maybe I’m glad I’m not running a crystal store but at the same time like there is a lesson there of I mean sticking to it is obviously a c like you can’t win without the stick to itness but one of the things that makes you stick to it is not just willpower it’s like knowing your win condition so like you do you even know what to look at and do you know what winning looks like do you know what the Benchmark should be so that you can actually assess a successful versus unsuccessful experiment that’s one of my learning one of my things I remember from back then the other one I remember is like with the Pod I we kind of like we called our shot a little bit like we made this Google doc yeah of the plan the one page plan and now I call that my kickoff doc but it was like before we started it I wrote this out do you remember that that doc yeah I remember and it was well the first thing that you hoed on was like you need your a thousand true fans like that was the very very first thing you go like if we just got this you can build a pretty big business just with with a th000 people that was like the first thing I remember and then you had a few things like we need to get to 100,000 listeners and you had a bunch of other other like maybe build a business of or like you know these ancillary businesses adjacent businesses across it and I me you did know that like that’s that one thing you kind of step back and it’s like I’ll share the dog I’ll put the doc uh if you’re on YouTube I’m going to put it on the screen so you can see literally like word for word what we wrote back then and it’s not that it it all happened but it definitely didn’t happen on the timeline I remember thinking we’re going to hit let’s get to 100,000 downloads per episode so that’s the thing like per episode I want 100,000 downloads by the end of the year so it’s like 12 months yeah took me three years so like you know now we do that but like you know it took three years for us to ever hit that Mark so it’s kind of this old phrase like don’t confuse a clear view for a short distance it’s like I feel like we had a clear view I just thought things would happen faster I overestimated kind of like what could be done in one year but with that one because it’s so fun I just kept going and like sure enough like you know it all we we we that was like the right thing to keep going those other things shiny things and that was like the right one the one that was making no money actually costing me money cuz one of the things I wrote in that Doc is I plan to lose $110,000 a year doing this yeah but it’ll be worth it because I thought you know creates like some Serendipity yeah and you kind of talked about that too like content creating Serendipity or like just being online and being like in the mix yeah forun liking a post or replying to something or putting putting yourself out there who cares of someone that’s like when you I mean it’s different for you though if you post there’s millions of people going look at it but like just for like a regular person when you post like a tweet and it says like 116 Impressions it’s going know like that’s still like that’s still some people that have looked at it and you don’t know who it is but but you know later down the line that could that could come in hand when we talk about uh some of the stuff I’m doing now I can I’ve gotten all my opportunities every single one of them has been like through Twitter or like through some like LinkedIn or some email or thing I’ve sent and late years later down the track it’s all come well tell the story about the billionaire so what what happened there that started on Twitter yeah uh that was a that was me just like saying I need to I just made this like Kick-Ass investment and let me like I want more people to know about it so I I was like talking to like journalist and stuff like that like hey write about the story and no one was really uh taking the time but there was one dude that was actually yeah on Twitter he um I just he wasn’t responding to anything else I went on Twitter I saw he active there I was just like I just kept liking his post I didn’t actually say anything and then like he checked out my LinkedIn profile and we started talking he’s like okay yeah let me write about the story and it was like it wasn’t like a fores or anything it was like a pretty small news site that it’s it’s so weird that they posted that article and a few days later a billionaire read that article and then we’ll tell that story a sec so even that is like um there’s this phrase that I read once I think Mark sster did a blog post about this called lines not dots basically the idea is like a line is just a collection of dots like right mathematically that’s what a line is it’s multiple dots just all all connected and so what he says is like you know in he’s like what people think happens is they see on tv that you go in you meet this investor cold you blow their socks off with this pitch and then they write you this check and say you know here you go son go go on and it’s like that’s not what happens like that’s movies that’s Shark Tank that’s not real and the real thing is dots and so he’s like you know many interactions that stack up that when you look back later is a line um and he’s like investors invest in lines not dots meaning they’re not just going to like it’s not the very first interaction typically where it’s all just going to happen for you and so it’s following the person liking the post replying to something they notice that this person said something smart not the first time but the third time yeah then after that they follow you back and then because of that they see this other blun post you wrote you don’t even realize that one of your 98 views was this person who’s actually legit and then go you know like and then so those dots Stack Up and ultimately that’s how trust gets built that’s how this the framework this is the the framea king yeah actually watch me cuss baby this is what I do uh yeah so that’s I think you know what you’ve done really well so all right so let’s get to the part where we break up so at some point we break up we work together for a while I got here I think it a couple years of like knowing each other and like doing stuff enough yeah so we get to some point where um you’re like you come to me one day you’re like I want a day trade or something like to be fair you were actually kind of good at this I remember one time we were on a call and uh I was like telling you like some instructions or some like some action items and then like there’s like no feedback and I was like yo are you listening like what are you doing what happened where is this thing on and you were like oh hang on um Bitcoin just crashed to $3,500 I’m like this [  ] is looking at the Bitcoin price while we’re supposed to be working on our very important Crystal Store or whatever we were doing whatever you know scheme we were in at the time yeah and I remember being like like two reactions one like annoyed like dude this guy’s like not paying attention two wait Bitcoin crash like should you know he’s buying should I buy you’re like because you told me you’re like Bitcoin crash I’m trying to I’m trying to place an order real quick it was down like 60% on just that day everyone everyone in crypto like knows that day it was a very it was like in March or something it yeah yeah yeah it was and like it was like you just never see it happen this is like this is not some alt coin this is like the coin this is this is Bitcoin and so when that happened I was like I I’ve seen a few of these and I just wasn’t a part of it and so I was like sorry I know I should be working and listening right now I was like I need to act right now and so yeah I mean I grabbed all the money I had it was a couple of thousand dollars and I well I didn’t just buy Bitcoin I was like the degenerate in me I was like okay let me try and maximize opportunity so I went on people know bitb I went leverage long on bitcoin so I took all my money did that and when I went leverage long means what here in this case so so if you buy $1,000 with a Bitcoin and you buy you know 20x leverage that means you actually buy $20,000 worth but if it if it goes down by even a little bit Yeah you you you’re go you’ll have you’ll experience I think called liquidation so getting liquidated um is like your worst nightmare and I remember you were like what four or five grand your full Grand that was my collateral I was 20x 25x leverage and when I clicked the button to buy like everything went Frozen and I was like I was thinking oh [  ] is it just me or like I’m I’m kind of freaking out and I got on Twitter that’s when I was I I was like not really talking I went on Twitter and everyone else is like bitmax just froze and I’m like okay it’s not just me it’s it’s like the actual exchange and I was kind of freaking out because I thought all right it’s gone I’ve already clicked by and and and when you when you were looking at the chart if you look at the one minute chart it was just going down like it went down down down down and it just stopped yeah you you’d assume that when it like unfreezes it would have just kept going down because who knows this was like a black one event right so we don’t know what’s going on and so that’s why I was like Frozen for a while cuz I thought I just I’m an idiot I just lost all my money but when it unfroze I saw I was up like $40,000 I was I was I was like oh like my heart was and yeah and I think you went on coinbase when you told me I was like I was like come on man I was like but wait what what’s the price and I went and I went and bought 25k that day too yeah and so which is actually an amazing trade like we made more money in that we made more money in that one minute yeah then we did like you know six months of experiments together you know whatever you three months of experiments we were working on at the time and there is a lesson there which was like um you know the the best kind of like ideas don’t all just come from your head like you know you’re at the time like inter Chief of Staff but you were like this is a buy right now I’m going to do this and by following you I kind of like got the benefit of that at the time and you know Bitcoin would traded up to like 70 grand or whatever since then and you come back down to Earth but my my takeway from still 10x from that day yeah my takeaway was uh there’s like there’s a very few moments where you can make all the money versus like trying to make a little bit of money every single time and I think like I’m not a day trader I don’t think I’d go back to being a day trader or whatever but I think all the money is made when there’s like a few key decisions that happen maybe once a year once every few years once every few months whatever it is um and you just have to act on it with like it’s a bit degenerate you have to like there wasn’t a lot of thoughtful planning around I’m going to buy Bitcoin because of this mathematical equation that’s for it was just times like this doesn’t happen every right at all the time let me in the moment I was like this guy’s a [  ] degenerate right like I didn’t even know exactly how an option trade worked I was like okay this is crazy but at the same time you’re right like if you go read that Buffet quote where he’s like you know there are moments or Seasons where you know the the the the clouds fill the sky and it’s about to rain and in that he says in that moment let us not come out with spoons but bathtubs to sort of like make hey there’s also you know nval has a quote that’s similar to this which is he’s talking about luck is one of the versions of luck is being able to recognize an opportunity yeah so it’s uh it’s the version of luck it’s like he calls it level two whatever or he’s not the inventor of this I I just heard it from him um but you know the original guy who wrote this he basically says you know it’s sort of luck favors the prepared mind so anybody could have seen that price and most people when they see something going down they get scared you were like this is Bitcoin Bitcoin flash crash blink decision that this is a good bet for me like whatever risk reward adjusted yeah and uh you know you were correct in that later I’m going to tell a story so you come to the states we fly you out and uh I remember we go to a restaurant and we invite my buddy suie and we’re talking and su’s like okay Sean like you know tell me like what what are you excited about yeah and uh you go oh I’m excited about this company called Annie mocha and you had told me about this company three times at this point and you were like I love the stock aning mocha I like the stock it was like you were like the GameStop guy right you’re like I like the stock and I was like Annie mocha I’ve never heard of this sounds like a yogurt um and then I was like why do you like it and then you told me something I didn’t really ask but I was like what does it do and you’re like oh they’re making these like mobile games or something like that okay whatever later when we’re at this lunch I was like Hey suly built a mobile gaming company and sold it for whatever 100 million bucks more um tell them about that what’s that Mobile gaming company and you started telling him he’s like okay interesting so I heard it like four times from you never took action cuz again I was not at that time listing and probably the way I should have that’s an investment you made millions of dollars off of yeah tell the story of how after we stop working together you go from intern to multi-millionaire in a very short like how long like yeah it’s a very short am of time so at so I’ve known about Anoka it was a Australian listed company so it was on the stock market and initially bought like a few thousand worth and it did well it went up like Forex something like that so I was like okay great that’s you know I’ve done I’ve done my done my thing here and I was looking at it as an investment so I didn’t sell it and then the Australian stock exchange they came after it and they were like ah you guys are dealing this we crypto stuff we’re going to have to deist you well they weren’t crypto initially they pivoted to yeah yeah so what about the time when I bought so I bought them initially because they had an announcement and they were like we’re going to do a thing called crypto kitties um and we’re going to work with them and so I saw that as like this was before like a pretty boring robot company now it’s like a sexy crypto yeah it’s like a sexy crypto thing it’s like how do you value a blockchain game like this is like things that are like H to value is kind of what I like cuz nobody knows what the price is and so like as it the generate I like that um and so yeah so anyway it did well by way none of this episode is financial advice this is actually NFA me just laughing at the craziness of the story so so let’s let’s tell the story so you buy you buy more so yeah so I bought it it got delisted and so I’m like holy [  ] my money is gone how much were you in at that point uh it was wasn’t a lot it was like 25,000 that it became yeah but to you that was a lot that oh that was yeah that was everything to me yeah so you put you put everything you have which is 25 Grand at a time it gets delist off the stock exchange because the exchange is like you guys now do crypto we don’t know we don’t like crypto we don’t know what crypto is yeah now your liquid stock you can’t even sell yeah I can’t sell it um and so this was like you tell me this I’m laughing at you I’m like yeah I remember you told me this you’re like dude I got [  ] on Anoka and you’re like it’s Dlisted I’m like wow I thought you’d probably just money cuz the stock goes down I didn’t think you would lose money cuz you just can’t sell it anymore yeah but you did something even crazy you double down on crazy so tell so throughout that year I did a few things I learned about like secondary markets that’s something I didn’t you know wasn’t really exposed to before I learned about that um I did a lot more research into like what they were doing and I’ve always been in the and I was the perfect person because I you know I had a Minecraft server when I was a kid so in high school so I understood how all if you turn these iname items into something that you could sell um this is a win-win for for everyone so there’s that I was a game when you when you and I was in Bitcoin way long before we 2016 so when you mix all of that together I was like the perfect person to see the white I was like okay what they’re doing is actually something that I want to get more exposed to and you know why buy a bunch of different tokens and companies when I can just buy the get exposed to the people that I think will be the the overall winners here um and so once I you know got had that conviction I was like okay well how do how do I I can’t Market buy the stock right so I was like how do I actually buy this thing now and this was like a year it’s been the listed so in that time um I was working for you and I another guy and I had a few other bets that did really off to pay was one of them that ended up being you told me about that one too you we were talking about buying out pay later yeah and I had met Max El from a firm yeah I was like oh this was a great startup idea and you go oh we have actually afterpay is better yeah and I was like bro your little Australian version is not better you were like no look at these numbers it’s better and uh that stock just went that went from you told me like really early on that one so I yeah yeah so uh I did yeah so I did really well with that um I also have a pretty crazy story there where I followed one of the like I didn’t have a lot of edge being like a kid from Australia investing in a public stock so I followed you know all the seet people on straa to see where they’re at and um of them was like near the square officers and they never like so that’s when um you know they ended up acquiring so I got like the little Edge so that was uh that was like a little happy you’re like I don’t have satellites to track cars but you that’s legit you follow the guy he was at the square offices you’re like they might get bought so a guy from afterpay um the co was at he was in San Francisco and he was like pretty close to square offers doing his run and I was like this there might be something I didn’t know what was going to happen I’m like I feel like a part ofip what happened but then you know Square came in and bought them for like 30 billion or whatever and you know the Stu going way crazy but um anyway I made a bunch of stuff I money from doing trades like that um and working for you guys all right so how do I buy animal I want to buy more and you know the way I went to like Facebook groups initially you told me you were like there’s a Facebook group of people just like commiserating it’s like wailing recovering uh Anoka stockholders were just there bitching and moaning like they were very disgruntled like they were talking about at one point doing like a class action against animok or whatever like all this stuff and so I was like okay this like at the time when they were listed they were worth like 80 million or $100 million I was like okay I could get a huge discount on that um and so yeah I went to Facebook I got a few people and they’re like small trades I was like I need bigger how do I get like people that have the big money so I got the list of the top shareholders you can you can request it publicly in Australia might be the same here in the States but I got the top holders and I was like let me go through each one of them which one of them is disgruntled and there was a few that I I still couldn’t like the Australian press wanted me to like name these people um I think one of them favorite public but they’re like pretty big time people that I mean they’re already rich M yeah they’re smart money they’re already rich they had this because they invested in some fund had some allocation blah blah blah so they were like just willing to get rid of it they like it’s Dlisted they don’t know they probably don’t know that they’re in crypto or they’re gaming it’s just one of the things in their portfol that’s you know right and so so you buying it for like what discount like 80% it was more like 80 90% discount to with the last and I remember when you told me I have the slack messages when you told me I’m buying it for you know 10 cents on the dollar yeah and I’m like bro you’re just lighting money on fire like you’re going crazy like what’s gonna like that’s a insane reaction to the Bad News Bears was I’m going to like double down but it worked I did I think I D down I yeah I put everything I had there about 100K that I just like all right this this should work out it it’s also like if I lose all this money all right I’m in my 20s I’ll like you told me this you go you’re like I’m 20 years old yeah I’m just going to I’ll just like get a job and I’ll save up again and I’ll I’ll just I’ve got this is the time to do every take all these crazy bets um I don’t have kids I don’t have anyone that’s heads on me so uh yes I made the BET um I did all the transactions that itself was like a bit of a crazy thing cuz they take some time to do to do private transfers in Australia like the documentation for that um the people that that were handling the transactions they were taking a long ass time so one of them actually the biggest transaction after animoca you know announced their now worth a billion dollars they did a raise I was like do I even have these shares because it was still it was still taking time to process I’m like I put the money in the Esco account like obviously ended up getting the shares but yeah it was like the this whole new world of all right I couldn’t like I wasn’t like an angel investor before I didn’t understand how to do this so I had to just like like CL did they even know you’re like did these guys know they’re dealing with like a 20-year-old counterparty in these no like they had no clue that they were yeah that was yeah it was pretty like these are these are like pretty serious legit guys that were I mean they thought they were you know shoveling dirt onto me and then I was they’re probably laughing yeah yeah their perspective was let me give dirt to this person and I thought I was buying a gold mine and so I was like all right let me let me do this um but I remember I and it lot of this there’s a lot of luck involved obviously um and so when I bought it you know I thought this was like a very long-term play like after 5 years there might be something here um but it was only after about 3 months so I bought it the valuation I bought at was like 30 40 million and a few months afterwards they raised a billion dollars um and I remember getting a call there was like this Hong Kong fund that reached out to me and because I you know I I I had to like Flex a little bit to people and put online that you know I bought this company so you’re up 50x yeah I’m up yeah it was it was worth like I think $2 million um and I was like holy [  ] um let me like let me like I’m not let me like have a think of what to do here cuz people wanted to buy it and I had a h Kong that reached out I was like we’ll buy all of it we’ll give you $2 million today you’re 20 21 years old or something this was actually right before they um actually announced they’re raising it a billion dollars some fund probably heard they were going to raise it a billion dollars then were trying to get it off me at a like at a discount so it was like I I think the their initial off was like aill million or like whatever and I remember calling my dad I was like holy [  ] like this is worth a million and OB like BR parents you know this is a million you took this to J but like take the money like what are you doing take the money right now um and so but you said I was like just wait a few months maybe this will be more I was like I was like I I don’t think that like this is it here and especially cuz I was tracking all the numbers especially nft like volume like nft volume sales and I’ve been tracking this every single month and for like it was Like A Flat Line it was like someone was dead here and then in this month there was a little uptick so I’m like this these little upticks don’t just like start and end here there’s there’s some like craze that goes on here so I was like if this is worth a billion dollars now and this this the hype is just starting now let me like ride this way at the peak Anoka was worth what at the peak uh they raised the latest R was six billion six billion so you were buying in effectively like a 2030 million valuation yeah it runs up to 6 billion I remember at one point you’re telling me in slack you’re like these people just offered me two million bucks for this worked out you’re like I’m not GNA sell though and I was like wow this guy’s insane and I was like that’s an insane story so you held it um what’s it at now uh who knows no one knows I mean I was with uh I met I met Yad and I met the board it was a few week and Sydney um and the the real thing here is I I forgot who said it but they like never count your winnings unless it’s like cash in bank it’s realized um and so I was like okay you have to exit this and the way to exit it is either I sell it privately um all these unicorns they’re at massive discounts right now so it’s like I could do that I like you know at its peak it’s worth eight figures do I sell now for seven figures and and cash it in that’s always like a decision that plays lot mind otherwise um you know have plans to list into an IPO and what you told me at the time because I was like dude this is the say I was like hey man listen yeah as your pseudo of Father Figure here you should sell this and you were like I see what you’re mean but you were like what I what do I need $2 million for you were like I don’t have something I’m going to go do I’m not going to change I don’t want to change my lifestyle like I like my lifestyle yeah you were like I’m just going to look to invest at somewhere else and if I think this is still the best place to invest it I’m just going to do that and like you know if I lose it I’m so young like whatever I get the story and I’ll just keep going like you know I’m not and the way you said it like the my meter went from oh my God this guy’s insane to like honestly I see his perspective which is that two million bucks changes most people’s Liv but you were like I don’t think that that doesn’t get me where I’m trying to go yeah and in fact uh you know if I still believe in this I just want to see where this goes and for you know for a while as crypto as nfts you right like became the thing that year yeah uh you know there was sort of like a peak moment in that where it became worth more than $10 million right so it like would have played out very well timing is always very very tricky um do you look at this as I was trying to try I was trying to time a a bubble or do you look at this as I believe in this company and I still believe in this company and that’s why I have the stock believe in the company and also um I was kind of seeing this as like there’s there’s like a few people that have like these life holds it’s like uh you know you hold these like this is a lifetime hold this isn’t like you buy in you sell out whatever um and so I was convincing myself of that it’s like I I’ll buy this and you know when this becomes like the next 10 cent I’ll have a couple hundred million dollar stake and that’s how and I didn’t have to doing this is like the only investment I had to do I didn’t have to make all these other Investments um there’s still some like part of me that believes in that it’s like uh I I still see a pathway where like in the next 20 20 30 years whatever this is like 100 200 $300 billion doll company or whatever and it’s like I have I’ve got a pretty decent you know stake in that um and so yeah that that’s what I was like convincing myself of that is a bit less now during times like this but I still have some thing here where I’m like okay um is it hard to not just get attached like identity wise to like I don’t want to be wrong yeah I made that mistake before like I think you know especially this is such an extreme case it’s one specific thing you were so right you were boy genius yeah then it crashes but you’re like am I now boy idiot or am I boy Genius is this the moment where I held through the tough times or yeah did I just [  ] up and I need to learn that lesson like yeah really hard yeah how you deal with that well I think um well I went into let me just like do something um so I was like I was still investing some money on behalf of other people and I was going around and meeting meeting Founders and stuff like that and that’s why I’m like I’m doing something else right now so well okay yeah you have other yeah I’ve got other bets so that’s what got me through it I was like if this goes away I need to make sure that this is the next big bet um I don’t need to be like I don’t need to be right on this one um like for you know if it ends up the way it’s going I could I’ve got time to make more bets and right be really right on something else yeah and also you had done so much degenerate trading that like you don’t emotionally mood swing like most yeah the money it all actually like becomes play money in a way well aside from anaka I had a bunch of other token Investments especially when when Facebook renamed to meta um remember I was buying up all the metav best coins to centraland axi sandbox and so I experienced you know making millions of dollars like liquid cash I also I learned a lot of lessons there I also lost a lot of that money when you know I didn’t manage my risk post post up but I I exper like the numbers just became like you’re looking at the screen I have no attachment to it um there’ll be like those days where I’d be up a couple hundred um like holy obviously I spent a lot of it I was like I was you know all my boys were treated well we went out I when I eat we all eat yeah it was like um I was a pretty shy nerdy nerdy guy right so I I didn’t really know how to talk to girls but if you want to learn how to talk to girls get rich like I had it’s like a it was like a huge confidence booster I was yeah I was it just gives you the conf it’s just the confidence for you which yeah I think it was a confidence it was like even if she rejects me I’m still I can go look at my metab bask later and feel good about myself yeah it was was more like yeah and also for me like having $2 million at a bank felt like a billion dollars to me I’m like I’m spending a lot and it’s just like it’s not going down because I’m like I don’t have kids I don’t have family I don’t have any I have no obligations whatsoever um so even a lot didn’t put a big D what you what do anything stupid uh so yeah I got an apartment I got a I got a Tesla um I spent like there’ll be weekends where I’d get like limos out for me and my boy would get like like I like for my birthday we got like three limos we drove to the Gose which is like you know go is in Australia um dude I’m so happy to hear this cuz when I like I don’t know what I was paying you back then it wasn’t much it was like the the very first thing was it was 30k a year I think it was it started 30k I think it went up after that to maybe like 80 to 100 something like that that’s what I was paying you then and that well I remember at the time being like oh this is not going to work this guy’s getting like super rich doing these like crazy Investments on the side like yeah it’s not gonna make sense for him to have a job at some point which is great like my goal wasn’t to have you work for me for 20 years it was like here’s a young entrepreneurial guy come get some reps with me come like just get you off the traditional path yeah and then like I hope you go do big [  ] and like you know I could be your biggest fan and all that that’s kind of What’s Happen here and I’m yeah I’ve had my popcorn you know watching watching you do this stuff and being totally entertained the whole way because you definitely like had like a roller coaster um you’re kind of like those like Wall Street bets kids basically like yeah I was on Wall Street bets like since was in like high school like I was yeah I was always on that for there’s the equivalent in Australia um there’s a thing called hot copper which is like the equivalent of Wall Street bets and on that I was like the most active person I’ve got and my nickname was Mr Silicon Valley CU I was just investing in tech stocks right and I’m like if you go on my everyone can look at my profile it’s like I’m oh I’m tweeting about Adam moer I’m like talking about Anam moer on that platform and there’s another company called brain ship that end up becoming like a multi-billion dollar because the AI craze and stuff like that um I was constantly looking at anything to do with what is like the next 100x stuck cuz for me it’s Stu TR he told me some story a billionaire takes you out to lunch and it’s like what’s the next Anoka he reads the article and he’s like I gotta meet this whiz kit takes you out he’s like what’s the next one yeah yeah yeah you [  ] your pants immediately you’re like I don’t [  ] know yeah because during that time like I’m I mean this is z era right so I’m like everything I’m telling people to invest in it’s going up and up and up and um you know I’m a genius yeah I’m a genius um and so I was like oh [  ] but I truly believed I was like adoka just raised a billion dollars I was like uh you should you should invest in adok Adam is the thing that’s that is the next thing and he was like okay whatever blah blah blah and in the next few days but inside he’s like God damn I love that confidence yeah next few days he ended up becoming like the top 10 shareholder in the company bought out tens of millions of dollars off the stock anded obviously you know anok didn’t stop at a billion yeah so he made you know over nine figures in that um so that then that TI you a little bit on on the way or tip the dealer or there that comment fair enough so um all right so you go through that crazy Journey one of the things that comes out of that was you were then on behalf of this guy plus other people you were doing other Investments yeah one of them is Shuffle let’s talk about Shuffle so yeah um you had slacked me a while back and you were like hey crazy story I think on the pot I was like can’t say who told me this right yeah now it’s all now it’s like way more public time you were like hey there’s a company called steak yeah that is making unbelievable amounts of money you were like they had like a whatever $800 million dividend last year like that’s just that’s the profits they took out you’re like this guy one of the owners I how old are they they’re like in the like late 20s mid 20s yeah like 27 years old bought a $50 million house in Australia yeah and another guy bought like a whatever $100 million house and it’s like that’s how you know someone’s like Rich by the way when they’re yeah buying like go look at the real estate yeah that is like you with a buying an asset like that like people didn’t know it the articles are basically like mystery you know Mega millionaire buys 50 million dollar home and then it was like they had two companies they had like a software company that makes likeon for yeah it’s like makes like the gaming software to go play like the games and then they have stake which is the casino the like basically crypto casino and they’re like you know intertwined companies or whatever yeah little Alam uh FTX you know I’m getting some Vibes here as I describe it all loud but either way like steak has been you know it’s become like huge you know they have Drake playing and and whatever gambling and [  ] like that so you meet these guys who are doing a competitor to that in a way yeah um how do you describe Shuffle and tell us about like this crazy space because I only know what you told me about the steak thing at the time yeah and then since a bunch of news has come out like kind of validating what you said um tell me about the space and tell me well at the time so I was so I was traveling around just Australia meeting other Founders and I was at this dinner and at that dinner the guy there was a guy there that was uh like pretty good friends with the state co-founders and he would like say these numbers this is before the Articles and stuff like that so he would say some insane bat [  ] crazy numbers and I’m like if these numbers are true this is the fastest growing Tech startup in Australia in history like this is maybe in the world like this is like very I mean they were founded in 2017 and they’re going to do a couple billion dollars in Revenue this is like some kids in their 20s right so initially heard of that I was like okay and then already at that time I I remember messaging you about I wanted to start like a crypto trading like let people do like I want to start a I I I titled the document I want to build like the world’s largest casino right and um I remember this doc yeah and the way that that product is actually like a huge product now um I don’t know if you’ve heard of R bit but they have like a cryptos trading thing I was looking to do that but that’s like regulatory just like a nightmare um it’s like an unlicensed thing and and so I was like okay but I see this gambling stuff it’s it’s huge stakers you know they just did a billion dollars in net profit um in you know a single year how do I get some exposure to that um and this going back to like how I find these opportunities I just remembered there was another like hidden uni that lived in a whole different City to me in Australia that posted his research on afterpay and this was like a couple of years ago and I don’t know why he popped out in my mind again so I went looking for that article I found his name and I uh hit him a message on LinkedIn like hey like you know what are you doing these days um let’s catch up and whatever and yeah we caught up and then that’s when he started telling me about like these other crypto kids in Australia that have like made it pretty big doing all this degenerate stuff and they’re starting a crypto casino and it’s going to be a competitor to not to stake but there’s like that’s the thing the market is so huge there’s I could you know there’s there’s a few other competitors that also doing a billion dollars um and it’s just not really reported on right it’s kind of like a uh yeah kind of shady industry so I was like okay I for me you know coming from pretty small town in Australia when when you meet other people that are kind of like you and we all had our like success in our own domain I’m like if we just come together we’re going to hit something big um and I just wanted to be around those people um and so it was more like a bet on grou of yeah just like also ambitious smart slightly degenerate or very degenerate autistic yeah like a 20 young 20y old basically yeah and these are all people and we’ve all we’ve all kind of been through the same thing of making a lot of money losing a lot of money so we can kind of like lean on each other in that way like they we understand each other in in that so um by the way this happens in like it’s happened in online poker I remember like the rise of online Po and the kind of Poker kids who all made it and they all kind of lived at houses together and yeah figured out how to like each like beat the game together basically uh same thing happened with social media so like the Tik tokers or the viners who all went and lived in the same building in Los Angeles collabed with each other plus traded tips plus like got brand deals for each other and they all like rose up way faster than the people who were on their own or didn’t have the kind of connection this was my Jun group yeah so um yeah so that that’s how I met them and I was like we all kind of agreed a lot of the background of the shuffle team they come from like the big exchanges FDX is one of them bitmax crypto.com that’s all their backgrounds so we all we uh Stanford of the uh of the sketch world I was like we we all and you know obviously I’ve traded on all of them and we all just had like we all agreed on this macro thesis of every single cycle there is like this one clear big winner which is the exchanges right they their business model is every bet every degenerate bet you take they have a little fee it’s called transaction fee for them for us it’s called Hass but it’s the same exact thing model um the same model uh stru the legal structures actually really similar as well they will like get a license out in stals or or you know FTX was in Bahamas crypto casinos out in the Dutch Caribbean and C so it’s like there’s all these similarity what is that there’s like some place that’s like they just made it their business some some country country right not yeah c yeah that’s the that’s place where the hell is Pur what is that’s it’s just a place uh where you can I mean anyone if you want to get a license to do like an online crypto Casino um you could probably spin one up in like 6 weeks it’s very their model they they’re like we’re open for business for Casino for online casinos basically and like that’s where everybody goes to get their yeah we’re like in the same structure as steak and you know all the other guys um we’re all under the same license and there’s some risk to that obviously like what happens to that license how long can you sort of play this game and you have to uh you sort of calculate what what amount of risk you want take there but yeah that’s that’s it’s exactly the same as these exchanges that were out out out um you know in the STS or or Bahamas and so we saw that and we’re like okay um here’s a clear difference between exchangers and casinos though exchanges are raising at tens of billions of dollars and that they’ve got all the fame um whereas you know in if people just understood if this was more public on how profitable these casinos are and how they’re very similar businesses to to exchanges then you know there would be some reating or valuation for these for these play uh for these uh casinos and so that was like that’s but a lot of these investors and funds they have like a no Vice Clause right yeah they just can’t invest in weed they can’t invest in gambling or porn or whatever even though there’s money to be made there so I think like that’s one of the other reasons is like yeah some people just either themselves individually morally say that or their fund Charter basic prohibits them from doing those things so they’re just like out on even if they know it’s a great business I who doesn’t think a casino is an amazing business we we raised the seed route and that was like the hottest H my biggest regrets was was not investing I tried to invest and that like go was like it’s like one entity here here and I was like oh God like if I have other people’s if it’s my own money fine but when I have other people’s money you I have to like you know think twice and just in that time it like closed or whatever yeah but anyway like that’s we we all agreed that uh in this like next cycle whenever it is could be 5 years down line who knows but in the next cycle for crypto um we believe that there will be one two or three casinos in the top 20 of of all the coins and that’s billions of dollars of of value that we think that you know we could we could do an and a big difference with us is like like I’m on this podcast right now like we’re not Anonymous like we’re not like these people that like all these crypto casinos usually they’re like very Anonymous people and um I mean if you’re putting your money into a platform you want to know who’s behind it right you want to know who these guys are but how do you um like all the how you follow all the FTX stuff going on right now I’m like really into this trial it’s like my soap opera right now that I’m paying attention to it’s your Roman Empire that’s it’s my Roman Empire exactly do you I’ve you’re following it and also like how do you feel about that and how do you think like because it seems like crypto casino is like Risk times risk in that sense of like I don’t know something be between you know malpractice to like you know the craziness that comes with with just that amount of money flowing through something yeah um and you said you have people that worked in some of those places what did they I guess what stories have you heard and I guess I don’t know like not like thean spokesman uh you know like not you professionally if we can just like my friend like how how do you think about that stuff yeah um it’s like it’s I mean being in crypto already you’re already you have like an appetite for speculation um and so anyone that’s already in the industry it’s like you’re you’re taking some that you’re taking some risk on okay there is some like regulatory risk already that one day this this license might close down and your business is like you know screwed up like and so you have to be kind of smart and calculated about that it’s like okay what are the other licenses can we start build building it up like we had to build our entire platform like in a modular way so if something happens to one license we can split off let’s say our casino and then put a license to the sports book and offer it in a different region so just like lost it’s like we had to move the island yeah lost like we moved it it’s so uh so some regulatory RIS there some what’s funny like products have most startups have product Market fit risk like we don’t know if anybody wants what we have to offer yeah because you have no Market risk then the second tier is technical risk it’s like uh if we can make a um whatever self-driving car right people are going to want it there’s no Market risk but there’s technical risk can you even build a self-driving car yeah with this there’s no technical risk either right it’s like I mean obviously you have to do technical work but it’s not that’s not the risk in the business it’s all regulatory uh it’s all regulatory risk in this which is so different than like 99% of the other startups I look at yeah very few times did you just just get regulatory risk there’s also just like actual risk that you have to manage of your book like limits that you like we will sweat sometimes like when we because we have to start upping the limits you know there some High Rolls that com and go like we I want to do a 10K Black Jack Hand I want to do a 25k Blackjack fan and you’re just like okay holy [  ] we have to you know if they have a few good runs it could be all of a sudden down a couple hundred thousand and so your revenue is not always guaranteed that’s also like the biggest difference in this in the talk about attraction so you guys launched I don’t know when in February of this year yeah what’s the what could you share traction wise uh so you know we’re probably going to do a half a bill billion in volume uh like this month um and you know this is generating a few million in Revenue a month uh and hopefully this month will be a few million of profit a month and you know we this is also another thing that like these businesses are built to strip out the cash flow it’s like you you you build the business and then you have you pay this out this is not like you’re not praying for some exit we all went into it knowing that no one’s going to buy a crypto Casino you build it to make a lot of money and then you know strip stri the strip the money out um and pay it out to all the holders of the business so um that’s also like yeah it’s a very like yeah it’s great yeah it’s a good problem so yeah it’s only been a couple months but um yeah know it’s yeah probably 50 million run rate is probably where we’re at right now super impressive crazy um any good stories about like I don’t know how did you bootstrap where did you go get your first customers how did you because that was your job yeah yeah so cuz you’d be like I’m in [  ] as right now uh you know meeting people like what are you doing in Asia you’re like I’m I’m building the brand I’m figuring out how to get this thing off the ground well this is like a really the the first thing that I I don’t know why I didn’t really know this but the people that come in play on your site if they like to gamble you know they probably also have some other VI and like they’re probably not some of them are probably you know can get very angry very easy because the whole thing is about either you make money or lose money so when they make money obviously they’re happy when they lose money you know right this place especially this Beyond like I’m going to find out where you live and I’m gonna find out like so that was like the when you talk about your first 10 customers like your first 10 customers are pretty rough people that you have to do so um I mean the first thing we went to was we’re all a bunch of crypto kids that made a bunch of money and then we gambled it ourselves so like we already had a lot of other crypto kids that made a bunch of money and you know like to gamble so we went to those guys first and like hey come come you know plan our website and and test it out and we would you know there’s little tricks and stuff of like stuff with like deposit bonuses and like yeah like standard kind of sport standard like sports play motions and stuff like that um one thing that I think we did that was or that that’s pretty interesting that we found out was okay we should stop spending so much time trying to get thousands of people who will deposit like10 $20 or whatever because they’ll come on they’ll come on your site and it’s good for them to you know play but they will lose $5 and then you know spend $48 hours in your support you know I’m going to kill you where where do you guys live I need my $5 back versus like okay let’s let’s maybe try and find customers that are you know not like that and we got pretty lucky in in some parts of Asia especially Japan right like they are they are people who bet really big and they’re very respectful and they’re very like they don’t waste any of our time like they will lose money play with honor yeah so it’s like okay these are the customers we want now we know the customer that we want and that’s good for the business um and yeah we started making some pushes there and and trying to find uh you know this is a pretty heavy like affiliate business you want to find you want other people to go out and do the work because you can’t do Facebook we can’t do Facebook ads we’re prohibited from doing Google so you can’t do PPC so you have you have to find really creative ways of trying to acquire customers and yeah that that was yeah well this is why like stake I think bought or they created kick yeah and they’re basically like paying twitch streamers you know gobs and money reportedly like 50 million $100 million contracts to come play because they’re like oh these are popular people one of the things they’ll play is we’ll give the money to gamble on our platform they gave Drake like tens of millions of dollars of like go play show people that you’re doing a $20 million B yeah and or you know gambling $20 million one night it makes you look like a baller it creates great content that’s going to go viral and get you likes yeah and all those people are going to see that gambling on stake is fun and Drake does it right like that’s like their yeah is that accurate that’s my perspective so stake pioneered that mod like they were like uh we can’t bid on these other channels with all these other crypto oh like other casinos um and so let’s try and find other ways and the streaming model like they thatly the thing that’s genius about also is that instead of like an influencer posting a picture saying hey come play on stake they’re playing the product they’re showing you how it works they’re seeing their reaction in picture with the whole thing so it’s not only are you educating people about how to play it and how to like this like next level in terms of um I guess like play of value as well like like they will deposit and you know they’ll play they’ll lose and they’re watching the favorite streamer play again they’re like all right time for me to also deposit again so we found out like the Affiliates or the influences that are really like they have a Discord Channel or they yeah they have a you know they’re constantly like live streaming those people make told me something you said like uh we would not like rather than have you have a million followers we want you to have you know 2,000 people like active in a Discord that you talk to all the time that’s more valuable right like and I I think this doesn’t just this isn’t just for like casinos I think like for Ecom and know like there’s people that do Facebook groups and right anywhere there’s like a concentrated like you have like those thousand you know loyal fans or whatever um those customers are worth yeah all the money we did a influencer campaign we spent $100,000 on influencers probably the first like paid influenc campaign we had done yeah so we put I was like let’s try $100,000 and we’re going to spread that across these like think we did um seven influencers I think right and so these are people who have like you know let’s call it 250,000 to like three or four million followers on Instagram and I sh you not some people some of those people who have a lot of followers literally had zero conversion zero like dude I could post on Facebook and get one conversion like it’s crazy some people kicked ass and as like what’s the difference I know that you know Instagram has this one feature which is like when um not everybody has it but like you can broadcast so like I don’t know if you’ve seen this but like is has this like almost like one to many group chat you can send a message and they can only Emoji react they can’t like it’s not like your fans can chat back but it looks like a chat right and I noticed that the people who have active versions of those where they’ll just be like oh you know my favorite mug yeah it’ll get like 3,000 like likes there right that’s a way better signal for hook actually converts versus like just a generic post or story or follower count yeah which is like you know neither here or there and I think people that really move product you can tell like the difference in it it’s also just about uh them being like very high intent and so I think about the people that would go into that broadcast channel in the first place it’d be like a small percentage of like that person’s like most loyal like fans or whatever that are active and you know yeah so I think um for like that that that could be applied everywhere uh wherever you can get like who cares about trying to get you know four million impressions I just want to get I want my product in front of like the Thousand most keep using the word degenerate but not degenerate but like you know whatever the thousand people that are by the way I I use degenerate positively too when we were hiring we used to uh you know companies have like corporate values yeah and it’s like Integrity yeah and um honesty and like was like everybody has the same values it’s like don’t somebody or something I don’t know ours was degeneracy yeah and people were like why does it say you should be a generate to work here and we were like that’s what it is like that’s what we want we want people who who like when they work on some like there’s Just Two Types of People there’s some people that like you know they work to live and some people live to work right like right we are the types that when we do a project we go all in we love doing it we obsess over making something [  ] awesome that’s going to take a lot of work and the late nights we don’t want to feel like we’re uh like asking for a favor every time we try to go above and beyond to do something cool like right and but n about working hours only that was just one aspect the other thing we used to say is like we noticed that the people who were the best earlier in their life had a degenerate like obsession with something that wasn’t like the thing your parents would reward you for or the school would reward you for right so for a lot of people it was gaming it’s like oh yeah I just spent like an ungodly amount of hours in in Ultima 4 or like in a Runescape or something like that that was such a strong signal to us that like this person is going to be great now with us because they have that switch where once they get really into something they practice to like to master it and they get obsessed they want to beat the game and like they’re not doing it for the because people told them to do this they’re they’re doing it because they can’t not do it yeah and so we found that people who had early obsessions in life were the best people that we wanted to work with you also want that in customers or an influencer who’s got people that are di hard fans like why do people love Taylor Swift like swifties they just they identify in that tribe is what you want and I think that like whether people like the idea of a crypto Casino or that makes them feel like really crazy or whatever I think that the marketing lesson about how these guys Market themselves it’s like one of the best like marketing hacks that created a multi-billion dollar outcome was this one realization that hey let’s pay these influencers and celebrities to specifically do live streaming on Twitch which is not the main marketing channel right for 99% of other brands and let’s give the money to gamble so that people can watch the the of thrill of victory and the agony of defeat yeah live in real time and that is the best marketing for our product I respect that I also think for those guys I think they’re really they’re like one of the most like fascinating entrepreneurs that come out of Australia because I think for kick it’s not it’s actually I think their goal here is all right they’ve now you know made this 5 to 10 billion like crypto Casino it’s like where’s this they want to go more now they you know twitch was valued at 40 50 billion I think these guys legitimately just want to go in and you know although the money to be they yeah they want to use money to like this is their next thing to get them to like I think they want to leverage they were already working with all these streamers paying them you know millions of dollars to gamble it’s like well let’s actually just also pay you guys Millions dollars to stream but on our platform it’s like I think they saw uh a sort of Gap here they came at the right time um but I yeah I don’t think it’s Jessica gambling I think these guys truly um you know love there’s no way that works cuz streaming doesn’t make that much money yeah yeah there is no way that that works in the sense that uh you know they would really have to be betting that they could and you know okay so I don’t think it could work but here’s the case where it maybe could so I remember so Tik Tok now is obviously massive yeah do you remember when Tik Tok came out so like yeah it was musically and then they did like a musically and musically was doing good but didn’t like make it to like the full mainstream and it was kind of still seen as this like kitty lipsyncing kind of it wasn’t like Tik Tok today you can go learn [  ] you can you people make you laugh you can promote your business you can sell products you could do anything at the time musically was literally like tween girls lip sticking right that’s like all it was right there like more of what the more of what the product was so then they rebranded it’s like they get bought they rebranded Tik Tok which like I remember laughing about the name like what is that name and they literally spent a billion dollarss marketing that app to make sure every teenager has it installed on their phone yeah and like I we had a who was working for us at the time that was in high school but he would come and work at our office I was like dude what do your friends think of Tik Tok he’s like ah it’s like the joke but he’s like I got to say like everybody knows Tik Tok he’s like there’s not one pet person in my school that doesn’t know Tik Tok he’s like we don’t think it’s cool yet but like I got to give it to him like 100% of every kid in my school is aware that there’s a Tik Tok app that they want you to download yeah and like they actually Brute Force like created the network effect I guess there’s a world where K could do that but it’s also I think J banking on um maybe they do something where the friction to buy something on live streaming is lowered and it yeah that’s a whole new like Avenue I I think there I think they know that the traditional model is not going to ever work and that let’s just get all the eyeballs and then maybe they can flick some switch somewhere um and you know like Instagram reals makes like $10 billion a year I don’t know how like you plugged into the world’s greatest ad engine in the world you Facebook’s ad engine is the greatest addings and maybe Google’s one or two but like it’s PL the reals Mak that much money because it’s plugged into one of the greatest money makers ever um and live streaming is live streaming Commerce is like a pretty huge thing in Asia um and so if it can if it can somehow work in Western markets I think like there’s something I think there where they could flick the switch and then you know this is this is how they go from we’re already worth a couple billion dollars how do we get to 10 20 50 and maybe they don’t care about how much they’re worth but what’s like the biggest yeah what’s like the next they’ve already won one games like how do we how do we get to the next so I think um yeah they’re super like I think more people should probably know about those guys and are you like I’m gonna be a degenerate forever or you like you know I’m just going to do this for this period and then I’m GNA do something else well I’m I’m just I really wanted to be a part of something that could be huge and that could grow really fast um and so I I want to do that with Shuffle and yeah ride this wave um like will I do another thing in sports betting or gambling whatever I don’t know you know maybe not but um I like like I mentioned to you earlier before it’s like you make your nut and go to your Noble Mission like I I think I think I might just May’s quote love that love that quote um I love that quote not because I think it’s right but because so many people when they hear that they’re like that’s what I’m doing because it’s such an easy out to like justify anything that you’re doing in the moment cuz you’re like I’m going to do the noble Mission later and so I love it CU it’s hilarious much people love that quote I don’t know if it’s good wisdom or bad WIS I can tell but uh what by the way what uh ideas do you have so yeah if you know MFM you know that’s what we do here I’m gonna I’m G to get out my notes up really quick okay and we might have already talked about some just uh really quickly there was um before we talking about kids that were playing RuneScape and stuff like that I literally have already one in here I had incubator around kids who are building businesses within games um I like that because I think every sing person yeah every so I guess during my era like I’m I’m a bit older now during my era it was kids that were building Minecraft servers or um I know for the guys that did stake they were RuneScape kids they they built a casino in RuneScape first and then they did their own thing so it’s like RuneScape Minecraft I think now it’s like Roblox or like maybe um like fortnite Creator maps and stuff like that like if you’re building businesses within games um every single person I’ve met that’s done that they’re all like super successful millionaires I 100% agree I think I tweeted this out I go what people think Su the like winners backgrounds looks like yeah and you know what the world tells you it’s like you know good grades he goes to a good school has good internships and like you know uh after school activities runs for student council BL it’s like what I’ve seen is like what the real winners are are like the kid the guy who’s running his own gaming server when he’s 14 yeah kind of because he just wants to be able to buy games it’s not like even running it as a business right like the sneaker head like sneaker flippers basically um you know people that are like hardcore Gamers that are like become best in the world at a video game that’s like super competitive yeah that and like you know which requires skill strategy communication like ton like Obsession those are pretty translatable skills yeah uh you know speech and debate is another one like there’s these like un unorthodox backgrounds RuneScape is one that’s crazy the RuneScape Mafia the number of rich young people I’ve met that the common denominator is yeah we to be like I I didn’t play RuneScape but they’re like yeah RuneScape has like the the marketplace or the plaza or something yeah and they were like yeah we used to R we used to run the plaza or the microplace and I was like gez this is something I have an idea around that which is uh I was like I want to create kind of like the outcast conference so basically what I want to do is be like these are actual hot beds of talent that nobody’s really talking about I want to invite like the people who do that like your point of entry is like you you need to hit one of those criteria you run a gaming server or like yeah you’re like Elite at this like you know I found this one thing called Mind sport it’s like some place you go that you it’s like Olympics but for nerds so you don’t do like you don’t run you play chess and then you play back gaming and then you play like you play like this like Advanced version of Chess like you you play Go you play like all these games and whoever’s like the best across these like 10 really hard strategy games is like the Mind sport Champion yeah and you know that guy’s a free you know those guys are all going to be amazing as soon as they decide like oh okay it’s time for me to have a career now yeah as long as they just get to like funneling the right place and don’t just go be a a Mackenzie drone like yeah you know those people are going to kick ass so I’m like oh I I want to make a thing where it’s free for them to attend but you got to be the best of the best and I want to just be able to like curate that talent and be like I’m going to place my bets on these people now like hey if any of you ever start a company just remember this Goodwill yeah of me bringing you here paying for all of this because I want to be your first investor like I genuinely think that’s going to be like one of the highest Roi things that I could do but I think a lot of them so a lot of them get lost to like banking or something like that and then um there’s a lot of them as well that they just don’t have guidance coming out of with the first thing that they do and so they [  ] around for maybe like a few years and then like that’s why I’m TR to Outcast cuz like they probably feel like oh kind of like a little bit I I wasn’t doing all the [  ] that the other like achiever kids were doing but like no no trust me let me show you 10 other people that are like you and then they’re like oh I see myself and them like I can do it too this this is the basis of like a lot of sports like you see a guy that’s from your hometown and now you start to believe you can do it too why do you like Australian entrepreneurs so much like what do you care it’s like because they’re from Australia I’m from Australia if they made it I can make it that’s that’s cool but had you never heard of any you would probably also be you know banking somewhere you know on that and also like I think a lot of them when you spend your time or your childhood whatever like in a room doing all this stuff you’re whatever you’re making money or like you’re learning business skills but then you start lacking in other areas like maybe so then like that that’s setting up setting yourself up for failure to waste some time whe whether it’s then afterwards you know you have some girl troubles or afterwards you don’t know how to do something with family or whatever blah blah blah that um yeah I think that that’s why oh that’s a great idea at I’m just gonna have a kissing I’m G have a high girl it’s like yo if you haven’t had your first kiss just let’s just do it now and we’re going to get that all out of the way we’re going to we’re going to crush these like lingering D in your head yeah U but yeah that that was one of them um what was your idea was I I well the idea was like just like a like a like a you know giving these kids like mentorship and like just Inc a little y combinator thing for for these weirdos um what I see yeah there’s a I was just at a conference I was just really surprised um I know something within conferences where I think maybe more people should uh make conferences for like cash niches um because especially if do like the exhibitor model where it’s like oh my God like you know and some of these people are the one I just went to they’re paying a couple hundred for for for a Bruce so maybe that starts off as you do your newsletter what you do like the the low effort thing first the low price low effort thing of newslet whatever build that audience and then just immediately go into like I’m surprised you guys haven’t done a conference yet because I feel like that would that would make one yeah like an MFM um another one that actually kind of related um I think this is kind of boring but like a CRM for again like cashed up niches so we’re right now looking for like a new CRM platform and you know everyone goes to like Salesforce whatever but they operate in like a 100 different verticals right and so who’s going to get our 10K a month it’s going to be the one that is still yeah built specifically for I gaming which is our Niche whatever so right now like we’re making a decision and we’re going to go with some other smaller we’re not going with Salesforce we’re going with this other one they’re going to get out you know 10 grand a month whatever um because they’re specifically they’re specifically for I gaming right um so that’s like another one that’s a little bit boring but it’s like if you could just find like some Niche what are these other cash up so like one for example I think is like farming right yeah yeah I mean any real estate is another one right yeah within that you could even be like senior living or right HVAC you know like things like that where you know that everybody there can spell e well it’s like it’s I think for anything that where the interactions or the the behaviors of your customer is very it’s very high value but it’s also it’s very different to like maybe like an Ecom order like or like just a transaction like on our one it’s like you you have a bunch of games that you like and you spend you know we want to know exactly if you’ve lost this amount of money in the next few hours we want to like make some contact with you and stuff like that we can’t really do custom behaviors like that with like a sales Sports whatever or or like whatever else C platform because it’s it’s very tailored to a very Broad nich so anything that has like saying high value customers and then basically figure out like first principles what should this look like for this Niche yeah yeah I think something like that like that’ be a good idea I think that’s a very like that’s a very good sandbox for somebody that wanted to explore and we we just talked this before uh there could be someone that does like so in in the gaming Biz there’s you know VIP like VIPs make up your whole entire business of we’re talking about there’s actually other verticals as well where VIPs is like your thing you should every single business probably has VIPs that they’re just like not uh interacting with um so maybe like VIP median software for Ecom right for whatever you know even for like retail businesses or whatever like you probably have yeah you probably have like customers that will come in let’s say I I started getting into like the hot cold exposure therapy stuff so I started going like how Tech bro of you like I started going into these places like you know three four times a week but um you know if these guys just would have know that like I’m paying this much amount of money come upsell me on something else or do something else like I think that even like retail businesses like just if you were to focus less of your time on trying to you know broaden uh like getting you paying on these Facebook ads to get the next thousand customers what about the 10 that’s going to spend like you know you know whatever five 10 times more on the business um so that’s probably I think some VIP management software for that be it could sit on top of whatever whatever Niche you choose it could just sit on top of the current software and just be like yeah but this one is all about your VIPs and we’re just going to extract the data that we need and then give you the actions or the recommendations or the the triggers in order for you to like when should when should we reach out what should we give them what do they like it’s um that could that could be one um this is probably not so unique but I think I I don’t know if you’ve use these use people like this but like uh agencies for Content that do it’s like full service of like thumbnails and um editors and I like I don’t know how hard that is to find like people that really know their [  ] about you know creating online content because it seems like every single person wants to like you know be a personality or brand right now um and so people that I mean a lot of these are like uni kids that know how to do this um but it’s like exactly how to connect those middle yeah be the middleman for The Unique is like done for you so D dfy yeah so like people who do this Ecom now honestly I think they’re pretty scammy but they’re like hey we will just hand you an e-commerce business that that makes cash flow right it’s like anytime someone promises you passive income just like run away yeah but like um that’s what they’re promising and a lot of people I these companies that are promising this are making a ton of money and one of the reasons why is it’s attempting to instead of just saying here we’ll teach you Facebook ads but now you got to go figure out the rest what product what’s the supply chain what’s what’s Google ads they’re like we’re just going to give you the whole thing yeah uh turkey and so you know there’s a version of that like there’s video editors in content there there’s you know copywriters but like you kind of want the whole thing the sort of like done for you package yeah I think like a full service uh Agency for all that sort of stuff might might work out um trying to think of what else uh me see uh this one’s kind of related to like maybe uh what you’re doing with Shepherd but um so recently we like we we s had to expand to Japan right um and that is like none of us speak Japanese like we don’t know how to scale in that country and so what what we had to do was like first let me research what other companies have done and I remember reading I think maybe it was like a chamar video when he was at Facebook and he was like uh we hiir some NBAs and they flew over to Japan they came back and you know a few months went by we went growing like what’s going on we fired those NBAs we got this like young woman from that was actually living in Japan and within the first month we’re seeing growth and we’re like wait what okay what are you doing that these NBA people haven’t done she’s like well you know on on the Facebook profile like we don’t care about your relationship status we care about your blood type and it’s just like stuff like that that you would only know localization translation and to find those people was like yeah it’s pretty hard to to do that so maybe if there’s some like agency where um like so we hired uni kids that are that speak native like fluent English so we can communicate with them but also they’re fluent you know in Japanese and doing that like you know out growth as being like 10x or just like know the market in terms of byone of them knew anything about like G they don’t need to know that we can teach them that right they just need to know like what are the people like how do you communicate with them how do we uh yeah localize all that content do everything um to to cater to this Market where and it’s it’s in certain markets very important that you are respectful and you appear like you’re not you appear like you’re not a foreign company that’s trying to attract the customers you appear like you’re born out of that country right um so so doing that process for me was very hard to find like the right people that spoke English that also was native in Japanese and and knew all that so um maybe if there was some like Shepherd like uh agency to help you okay you’re expanding into this country here’s like your you know gr assistants that are native to that language and can do all these things um that’s cool I like that um yeah there’s two crazy things on that one if you look at the Facebook growth chart like one of the key things for Facebook was getting the site translated and localized across like and they did a they had to do some crazy Wikipedia like [  ] to get the whole site translated because there so many different I mean the Facebook site was complex at the time and so um I remember seeing that that was very impressive to me second is there’s a sub version of this which is just to do business in certain places you have to establish an office yeah um like China you can’t do business there unless you have a local office you can’t do business certain places you can’t pay you can’t pay local people unless you have a thing or whatever and just that can take like a year yeah and so like I remember with TW when we’re at twitch it’s like oh yeah we’re trying to put our servers here we’re trying to do this here um we’re using we had to use Amazon’s people to do International expansion CU like twitch even as a multi-billion dollar company didn’t have like that expertise in house and they would be like yeah it’s going to be 12 months and they’d be like we’re finally live in whatever so and so country with our office and I’m like what and like and they’re like that this has been a year of effort that’s insane like that seems like can we turn that to software somehow like the way the STP Atlas did for company corporation like is there a stripe outlas for the world in that way I’ve got a little funny story about the localization stuff so um like everyone probably listening is probably thinking like oh but why don’t you just get AI to translate your stuff and it’s it’s not there to the point because we were using just chatu PT a bunch of guys that were non Japanese speaking chat PT and you know we’re talking to like very high value customers right and you know the AI hasn’t really caught up in like tone or like certain like nuances and so apparently like you know we were talking to a VIP like they were a kid like we were saying good boy likeu like that and yeah people are into that [  ] yeah these people like and then you know yeah definitely these people definitely were they were like they stop playing with us like yeah like disrespecting you blah blah blah so um yeah so getting like native yeah getting like for especially languages like that like getting like native people to know how to speak um yeah no word so what one of one of the projects I working on when I was at twitch was like we were trying to grow like crazy and so I was like all right luckily we had a group of people like there’s four people in an office in Brazil that like no one was even talking to really they were like yeah they were so at arms length from headquarters and I was like hey I’m here and you guys are like my key people they’re like oh awesome we have so many ideas like can you help us do them we’re like yeah I was like what sorts of ideas and they were like well you know our uh everybody here uses YouTube and so subscribe is like how you follow people on YouTube but on Twitch subscribe is you cost money so if everybody here they open the Twitch app and they click subscribe to follow the someone they find interesting it says pay $5 right they’re like dollars first of all five that’s a week of groceries yeah and secondly this site you have to pay to watch people screw this they don’t even know that it’s free to watch right it’s like can you just change the text on that button and I was like oh damn how many more of those are there inside this app and another one was like we were like trying to come up with like this marketing campaigns be like marketing like our marketing experts like coming up with these ideas I asked the local team they were like hey can you buy can you just give me your credit card I want to buy five iPhones I was like iPhones why he’s like in Brazil an iPhone is like a gold bar he’s like this is like he’s like we’re just going to give these away trust me it’ll get like 20,000 people watching this stream I’m like what and he’s like this is a gold bar imagine somebody just giving out like golden bars he just kept saying that and he did it and it was just exactly that was like all of a sudden was just number one most watched Guy on Twitch that day it was the guy giving away one iPhone and he he milked it for like four hours he’s like I’m not giving it away until we get like 30,000 people in here yeah and he’s like and it worked it was insane yeah yeah stuff like that that way that we find out like every week of like oh [  ] you guys actually do it this way and by us have you heard about what Mr Beast does with this uh is it like the dubbing the videos so first he exploded his growth by just being one of the few American YouTubers to like create his Brazil page create his Philippines page create his Indonesia page he created separate accounts for all those localized them hired somebody who speaks the language and like you know like when we were over hanging out with a some lady walked in speaking Portuguese and I was like like what the hell’s going on and he’s like oh yeah she manages like my whole page for for Brazil uh you know like you have to have somebody who speaks the language and knows it and then what they did was I was like so do you dub it he’s like yeah we dub it but we hire like voice actors I’m like why don’t you you could use AI I’m like excited to be like you say he yeah yeah I’m sure you can but like he’s like what we do is we go and we find the guy who did the Spider-Man voice in Brazil and he does my dub for like pretty cheap and then every comment is holy [  ] it’s Spider-Man yeah and like he’s getting crazy engagement cuz they’re like that’s Spider-Man and he’s like yeah it cost me like an extra five grand but like look at what it did to my page I think they turn that into like a agency where they like like they do it for other people as well like it’s they do the done for you thing they’re like yeah if we did this for growth we should do this for 20 other YouTubers and I was like dude of all your businesses like Feasta BS or whatever yeah this is like most underrated one because I’m like this is genius it’s selling your sawdust your your byproduct stuff you already built in the house you’re just making it available for others like that’s a no and you’re Mr Beast if you just said hey every YouTuber like you can use what I use they’ll all sign up right so it’s like instant customer acquisition paying and they take like they’re like dude you don’t even have a page in the Philippines we’re going to run we’re going to create it we’re going to run it for you we get half or whatever we get 30 to 50% right so it’s like they don’t just take like a monthly fee they own like you know the majority you know like a huge chunk of that channel I’m like that’s a really good model yeah I wonder if anyone’s done like a roll up of YouTube channels and brands or whatever like that seems like seems like every Niche ends up being like you geted get rolled up and do that I don’t know I heard spotter no I haven’t so they’re kind of doing it what they’re doing is they go to the creators and they say we’ll buy your back catalog right so they say we’ll give you $2 million today you can invest that in your videos now to make better videos and they’re like we can just see with AdSense we’ll make our money back in two years and then after that like forever we profit off your back catalog that’s like the equivalent of like tlor Swift selling whatever exactly so they this company’s like I don’t know rais a lot of money I don’t know the key is underwriting it’s like I don’t know if they correctly underwrite these deals or not yeah but like Mr Bast sold a bunch of his back Channel back catalog a bunch of other people have so I think they’ve like either raised that a billion dollar valuation or we’re close doing that for YouTube I have a friend that I work with who uh manages speeds I you know speed the the kit uh he manages his IP I don’t what to call it like uh whenever there’s a video of speed going viral on YouTube or Tik Tok whatever they will claim it and then they make revenue of they they’ll they’ll run ads on it and I think I think very quickly like just speed alone that’s generated like a million dollars so far and he’s like we should just be doing this for like not just speed like all these different creators you create like a big business so that might be also like another like within that because the way that works is if your video if your IP is being played by somebody else you can claim it and either they take it down take it down yeah or you get all the ad Revenue yeah exactly yeah and I think and you should just do yeah the ladder like get do that so because they found like they like just like for people creators like speed like a lot of the eyeballs that is that is on him is not on his videos it’s on the millions of clips and compilations and stuff that are that’s that’s going unclaimed like your just like easy money that you could be claiming and getting so um yeah that’s probably another thing that people should you know look into and dude this is so good uh this is great these are some some these are fun ideas um I’m glad we did this man this is this is awesome and uh yeah isan where should they follow you or go what can they do uh yeah you can follow me just like Twitter uman uh isan Hawk but the last year letters of my name’s cut off so HQ so your your s ha a I’m i s h n h a q that’s that’s nobody knows what H is in America uh H uh but yeah follow me on Twitter if you or LinkedIn look me out put it in the in the description uh dude amazing I’m proud of you you know this has been so amazing to I’m G to validation yeah yeah you know I I’ll say it I I am super impressed I just I’m so glad you kind of you you’ve taken you know the ball you just run with it and you’re taking just such interesting shots on goal and like whether any of these work or not right now is pretty secondary like yeah by the time you’re 30 your scoreboard is going to be filled up you’re going to have made all the successes you whether it was this or that I don’t know which one yeah by the time you’re 30 you’re going to have it all done in terms of like you know the achievement side but you’re also just going to have had so much fun right and like you know these lessons you’re learning about like hiring these kids in Japan because if this yeah those are the real lessons of business and so I’m so glad you’re you’re getting them man this is so cool to see thanks uh appreciate it I’ve got one last question from you I you said so I forgot like your one life goal was like I think it was like you want to educate with a 1% of the world or whatever I what I said what I said at the time was I want to be like for 1% of the world I want to be their favorite teacher yeah like you know which was at the time I think like 60 million people or something like that I was like if if 60 million people thought like because like for me I’m like oh like I learned so much from Tony Robbins or Tim Ferris or nval or these people like I’d love to just be that for for people I think that’s like yeah I know what they kind of have done for me that’d be so cool if I was at for other people that I think that would be like the highest calling for me yeah yeah and do you think so is that a is that still the case and then B like do you still want to do that then B uh like what do you think will be the what do you think will be like the Avenue that way you achieve that like is a is it because you’re already in the ears of you know all these people whatever the stats are now yeah very different to what the stats started yeah but um it’s not actually that goal that goal I think was arbitrary like who cares if it’s 60 million who cares if it’s 1% It was ambitious like it sounded good but I’m like I’m only need to say this to myself like I don’t I need to believe it for myself what this what this actually means and that’s not something I like needed to die to do you know like I I didn’t like feel like it was Do or Die to do be to be able to pull that off it was something that like sounded better than what I really meant it was also kind of virtue signally like you know um I don’t even know if like teacher is the right word but I guess the thing that I think about now is uh almost like the d i i i stripped the ambition out of that and just made it really simple but more true for me which was I want to be somebody that if I was 21 I would look up to this person like I’d be like that is what I want to be that guy is awesome and that’s a combination of things so for example part of it is making content being out there otherwise I wouldn’t have even known that this guy existed part of it is do cool [  ] so that like stuff that like I respect uh more I think is cool in some way some of it is like build a cool business some of it’s like uh you know this Outcast conference like that’s cool I’m like I like his reasoning behind that I like that he went and did it or like you know you know just giving somebody you know a bunch of money because you believe in them and like my version of philanthropy it’s not like donating to the cause and going and sitting on the board of some non profit but like if you see somebody who’s got a dream like fund it and like make that happen so I want to do cool [  ] that like I would respect and the last part is the way you come across like I I know that my favorite people were charismatic storytellers they were funny they were likable they didn’t feel like they were bullshitting you they had moments where they were honest and like they could have just not shared that or they could have said a sanitized version but they chose to just be real so I’m like those became my like scoreboard is like would I at age 18 into 24 like would I have thought this guy’s the man and like I know even at that time I like if I saw someone that was awesome like Elon Musk oh he’s amazing I remember watching some documentary about him on the plane before he even started like uh Tesla I think or it was like long time ago and I remember thinking this guy’s awesome but he had like had four marriages at that point I was like that’s not winning to me yeah I like that he’s an outlier in this one domain but like I didn’t want to replicate these other three so like you know to me I’m like the thing I would have respected is somebody who’s like just like they’re a really great dad like for example one of the things I want to do instead of instead of doing another business or write a check is like I want to go coach like a high school basketball team like Mighty Duck style for a year or two years or something like that yeah and I’m if I I remember if I had if old me if young me had heard that some guy was some rich guy was doing that yeah I would have been like I don’t care if he’s not the richest or most successful that guy’s awesome five and so I just kind of want to be the person like what’s that go like be who you needed when you were younger yeah not needed but like be who you would have admired when you were younger right and uh that’s the goal yeah uh not the like exact goal I had before which I don’t know if it’s better or worse but like it’s more true for me so I know I remember I think you’re say on some you’re like you I think you went to LA or something you met a bunch of like rich people and at at this point now I’ve met a bunch of billionaires and other other cool people and for the most part like a lot of rich people are like miserable and um they and like we mentioned before about the kids that stay in their room and build these businesses they lack other right components of life and I see that reflected throughout all these people that are yeah they they’ve made a bunch of money or they’ve done this one cool thing but they’ve neglected every other part of their life and it’s like okay it’s there’s yeah I wouldn’t I wouldn’t you know trade I wouldn’t want to I wouldn’t want to be in in those shoes um it’s similar to what the I forgot who it was with some guy talked to the instacut C year and he was like uh are you how are you and he was like I’m 33 and he’s like I would and this guy’s worth billions of dollars he like I would do anything to be 33 again um and like he would trade trade all his money so it’s like I see that a lot more now and you know I’m hopefully maturing before I was like yeah I just want to get all this and get the money and stuff like that um but yeah I think that’s something cool and one thing that one of probably the most important thing not important but like effective things that I learned working under you um was I me maybe was maybe you’re talking to suly or suly taught you this was like aggression like just being like aggressive in like getting getting things done and what you want like I think most people don’t don’t do that like they don’t follow up or you know they don’t they don’t be annoying like they don’t they don’t try to be annoying um when I when I started to PL that I was like okay things are moving way way way faster uh yeah I remember probably like cuz I used to kind of you were like my dear diary it’s like I come home and I’d be like I don’t even know what time it was your time you know be like 3: a.m yeah be like 3:00 a.m and I’d be like hey I’m ready to work and like I’d be like I met this guy or I noticed this thing and I would like kind of like use you as my sounding board to like play some of these lessons back yeah so it’s cool to hear what like stuck but yeah that that idea of like intensity is the strategy meaning like yeah this guy’s not smarter than me he’s not yeah more knowledgeable to me about this he’s not like there’s no special Aura around this person what is it that’s made this person so successful and what what do I what’s the difference between me and them and I just noticed I was like oh he doesn’t have these like imaginary walls where it’s like you stop here right he just like no like okay we want to do this left like I remember one time we wanted to do a deal the guy who we wanted to invest in this company and he was like the I was kind of on the fence and he was like what if we just wire him the money and I was like $2 million and he’s like he’s like yeah like we’ll wire him the money he’s the honest guy like we met the guy he’s like not like a crook yeah um he’s like let’s just wire him the money and then like I feel like that’ll tip the scale once the money’s in is bank account he’s not going to like want to like wire it back and I was like this guy’s insane and like we had another moment like that where we were working on a one of the founders like oh I really need to raise this round they’re telling us this urgency I really got to do this we’re running out of money uh the the pitches are not going well the first few pitches didn’t go well can you guys help we’re like yeah we can help when can you help right now sounded like an emergency oh oh we got a a thing we’re like you got a thing you just said this is like so important okay whenever you can they get on they get on call with us we go through the deck before we we said send the deck in advance there’s like 40 minutes before the call what do most people do 40 minutes before the call this we’ll talk about it in 40 minutes yeah no no no silly was like by the time the call happened he’d already emailed back like slides 9 through 13 suck eliminate them slide four is backwards he put it in slide one slide one needs to say this had already given him the full first round of feedback yeah they were like what the hell so they were like looking at it and we’re like cool let’s just make these changes right now they’re like no no we don’t want we want to be respectful of your time he’s like the thing that’s respectful of my time is like showing that you’re like full force going for this not that you’re not going to use my time I’m here to help but like let’s do the thing yeah you want to make this awesome let’s make it awesome so they start working on it and they’re like okay we we we know what we need to do next because we need to go pull some data and do whatever and um so we’ll check back in with you whenever he’s like uh you know it was like noon and he was like cool like let’s check in at 600 p.m today and they’re like two calls in a day and he I was like two calls in a day I’ve never done that with somebody have you ever scheduled two calls in one day with somebody like it never happens it’s not that it’s so crazy it’s not like running into a burning building but it’s kind of the business equivalent of running into it’s like whoa that’s unusual that’s like a highly intense way to do this yeah and you could tell they were kind of shipped by it and then they did it and at 6 p.m it was like still not not like exactly where we needed it to be or we realized something and we’re like cool 9:00 a.m tomorrow let’s do it again by the third day we were like this deck is in great shape but these guys were like worn out yeah and suly was like dude I’m just getting warmed up this is great this is like what I live for is find the thing and laser in and to go for it and like what who says we can’t meet twice in a day who says that they said no to the first proposal well let’s what if you know there is some number they’ll do this at what’s that number and like you know he’ll just think about it differently yeah that stuck with me I’m glad that kind of that idea stuck with you I say it out loud so that somebody out there listening will be realize like yo my intensity knob is stuck at six yeah like 10 isn’t more hours it’s just like more focus and it’s more intensity at the main issue and not self-limiting in some by by fake imaginary walls that don’t exist yeah yeah you got to bring the ngy uh ni SP Bo stuff that’s there we go all right that’s it that’s the pod what