Rob Walling (implied by context — bootstrapped SaaS expert) joins Sam to discuss how non-technical founders can start and grow software companies. They cover the stair-step approach to bootstrapping, where to find developers, how to validate without building, and what roles a non-technical founder actually needs to bring to be worth having as a co-founder.
Speakers: Sam Parr (host), Guest (Rob Walling, bootstrapped SaaS operator)
What Percentage of SaaS Founders Are Non-Technical? [00:00:00]
Sam: All right, last question — how many of the folks building software companies that you see, yourself included, are non-technical?
Guest: Well, that’s a great question. And if they are non-technical, what do they do?
We actually do a “State of Independent SaaS” survey and put out an industry report. We asked: “Do you have at least one technical founder?” The number of bootstrapped-ish SaaS companies with zero technical founders is — I believe it’s around 20 to 25%. It’s very possible.
And usually what expertise they have — they’re either the subject matter expert (like “we’re going to build software for accountants, I was an accountant for 20 years”) or they’re sales or marketing. That’s what they should have.
Now, we’ve seen the scenario where there’s a developer and then there’s “the business guy.” And anything short of that — if you can’t sell, market, have input on the product, or develop it — those are really the four roles. If you can’t do at least one of them meaningfully, you probably shouldn’t be a co-founder.
Sam: So if I’m not technical, but I can tie stuff together and use Zapier and I’m super creative — how do I start a software company without having a technical co-founder?
Paths for Non-Technical Founders [00:04:00]
Guest: Since you have money, you would either acquire something — there’s always stuff for sale that you could acquire and grow with your content marketing expertise — or you’d hire a developer or an agency to build it.
If you don’t have the money, a lot of non-technical people work a day job and funnel money to the side to basically pay a developer to do it.
The other two approaches I’ve seen: one is exactly what you said — build your MVP using Zapier and Notion and chewing gum. Cobble it together to the point where if you get a few grand a month in revenue, that proves it, and you use that to get it properly built. It’s a harder way to go, but it’s possible.
The last one I’ve seen — which is genius — is what the founder Castos did. He’s not a developer, single founder. He worked a day job, started a productized podcast editing service. He got it up to I forget — $30 or $40 grand a month in productized podcast editing.
Sam: Was he actually doing the editing?
Guest: He did it first, then got someone overseas to do it. Even had folks in the US and Canada. There was enough profit margin that he reinvested. He was doing podcast hosting, someone approached him about a WordPress podcast plugin they wanted to adopt, and since he was doing something public in that space, they found him. He bought it for not very much money, built the entire business out — and it’s now a seven-figure business. He’s raised three rounds. It’s growing fast.
So that’s the other way to do it — even I was a developer and had to do it nights and weekends, pulling money from my day job for the agency.
Where to Find Developers [00:09:00]
Sam: What’s the best way to find a developer? When I was starting out, everyone said “go on oDesk and hire someone in India,” and I’m like, I don’t know, man.
Guest: I typically see people going through referrals. You get into a community — MicroConf Connect, Indie Hackers, the Dynamite Circle — and you ask, “Who have you used that you trust?” You try to get that referral. Just going flat to Upwork, which used to be oDesk, is kind of a show these days.
The other thing is there are now these referral services and aggregators. There’s one called TrustShoring, run by a guy who attends MicroConf — he basically knows a bunch of Eastern European dev agencies. If you come to him and say “I want to build an iOS app,” he’ll say, “Cool, here are three agencies I refer to.” He’s almost like a broker, but he’s vetted them. Then there’s clouddev.com, which does something similar for Latin America.
Sam: Do you like Toptal or anything like that?
Guest: Toptal is good, it’s expensive. It’s hours-based, so it depends on budget. I haven’t used them personally, but friends who have say quality was really good in the early days. Of course, like anything, it can get diluted over time.
Sam: How much would you budget to create an MVP?
The Stair-Step Approach to Bootstrapping [00:13:00]
Guest: It depends on what it is. But here’s the other thing — if you’re non-technical and you’ve never started a startup before, I would say: don’t build a SaaS app. It’s too hard.
Go look at this thing I have called the stair-step approach to bootstrapping. Start small — a WordPress plugin, a HubSpot add-on, a Salesforce add-on, a Heroku add-on. Build that first, cut your teeth. It’s way less expensive, way easier to maintain. You get the experience, you get some revenue, then grow it to enough that you can buy out your day job — $8 to $10 grand a month. Then you have experience, you can double down.
Sam: This is awesome.
Guest: To your question of building a SaaS MVP: $10 to $30 grand is what I’d throw out. But then you’d need that agency on retainer — that’s where I’m saying if you’re non-technical, you either need some money, or you pre-sell it, get to the point where there’s enough revenue to justify raising funding if you go that route.
Sam: And can a non-technical person actually maintain that and understand what’s going well?
Guest: No. That’s where I’m saying — if you’re non-technical, you either need money, or you have a side job that’s putting money toward paying that agency. Pre-selling is the best way to de-risk it.