This episode of the My First Million podcast features Sam Parr interviewing Michael “Harry-O” Harris, the co-founder of Death Row Records. Harris shares his journey from running various businesses in his youth to his involvement in the music industry and his reflections on life, business, and personal growth.
Topics: Entrepreneurship, Death Row Records, Business Strategy, Personal Growth, Music Industry, Real Estate
Early Business Ventures [00:00]
Sam Parr: You told me by age 26, you had 11 different businesses. You said around that in your early or mid-20s, you were producing Broadway shows, that you were like in the mix at a very early, early age. How did that kind of come to be? And what were those 11 businesses?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Well, I used to be, I used to, I used to own a limousine. First business I had was a limousine service. That was quite profitable. And I also had a construction company, I had production companies, I had music companies. I had salons, like beauty salons. I had real estate investment companies. So, I was just kind of like all over the place. And I also produced not just concerts and plays, but also I supported clubs in the city.
The Limousine Business [02:48]
Sam Parr: How big was the limo business?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: I had about 30 cars. And so, but they was luxury limousines. They were ultra stretches. At the time, it was pretty, pretty impressive, the style of car that we had. Yes.
Sam Parr: What type of monthly revenue can a limo business make?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Man, it, you know, it depends. I stayed pretty booked. I spent a lot of time advertising. So a lot of times, I would have beyond the cars that I possessed, I would have people calling me. And so a lot of the services that surrounded me didn’t have business. And so I would farm out, I would farm out the rest of the business that I didn’t have the capacity to serve. So a lot of times, I would provide opportunities for the other car services that didn’t advertise as much as I did. So maybe somebody needed 100 cars and only had 30, I could provide them with the 100 because I would farm it out to the other companies, which you get 50% of the service that is conducted.
Sam Parr: I get a feel for the fee.
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Right, right, but you actually get half. You get half of what it is because you’re the one who initiated the sale.
Early Lessons in Business [04:18]
Sam Parr: How on earth does that happen? What age did you start working?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Well, you know, as a youngster, I started working. I used to work at, I mean, likely places to learn business structure. When I was a kid, I mean, like, I’m talking about like before I even went to junior high school, I worked at a shoe shine parlor. And at that shoe shine parlor, it was in my neighborhood, but it was two shoe shine parlors. There was one on one end of the corner and one was on the other end of the corner. What I was able to learn from that experience as a 12, 13-year-old kid, 11, 12, 13-year-old kid, is competition and how business was ran. And these two guys competed with each other, but they also hired, you know, kids from the neighborhood to work at these shoe shine parlors and we competed with each other. And so I learned a lot about business from that practice and that process, but I also learned, I used to listen a lot. You know, a lot of people come in, different from different walks of life. It could be preachers and business owners, people from the street, and you would just, you know, while you’re shining their shoes, you’re listening and at a young age and you’re hearing different, hearing about different opportunities and how people approach business differently. And so I was always like a sponge at a young age. But you know, friends, and I also learned how to never judge a book by its cover. Like sometimes a guy might pull up and be in a nice car and you know, you’re like, people is, you know, trying to get that customer. And this guy comes in and may may only have one or two pair of shoes and may not even be a tipper. But then a guy pulls up in a station wagon or a regular car and he might have 30 cars in the, you know, 30 shoes in there and also is a big tipper. So it’s just, it’s just learning how to read people and you know, just that whole competitive thing that was amongst us as you youth to compete and you know, be at our best, be dressed, you know, representing and and and you know, honing in on our skill. So I try to learn something from everything I always did as a kid. Like how do I use this moving forward? And you know, what is it, what’s the lesson, you know, learned here, you know? So that was, that was, and my mother also owned a restaurant in the neighborhood and I watched how she navigated that and how she would, how she handled her customers and how she worked with her staff and you know, I actually remember before she bought that business when she used to work for the people that she bought it from, how she, you know, raised up rose up in that in terms of management and then acquired that business. And so just watching people be effective in business at a young age had a profound effect on me.
Empire Size and Revenue [07:12]
Sam Parr: And you end up kind of getting in trouble, which I’ll let you tell the story in your 20s. But before that, how, how big was your empire in terms of employees at its peak?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: I probably had about 150 employees.
Sam Parr: And can you reveal like how much revenue like this whole the the whole empire was bringing in?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Well, I was I was making millions of dollars. I mean, you know, it’s 35, 36 years ago. So I don’t remember the exact.
Sam Parr: I mean, that builds up though. What do you, what did you do with your money?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: I always invested in in real estate.
Sam Parr: In real estate? So you’re not not public equities, you like real estate. And you’re so you’re buying real estate in your neighborhood?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Yeah, yeah, all over. Anywhere I could find a deal to buy, you know, like the rehab properties as well as the luxury properties and business outlets, I would I would purchase it.
The Jingle Factory [09:03]
Sam Parr: What’s the first thing that comes up? It’s this interview did you did. I forget the publication. But the article said at one point, you’re doing something, I think it said close to a million dollars a day in drug sales. Is that true?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: I think it said two.
Sam Parr: Was it two million a day?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Yeah, I think it said two. I’m not proud of that.
Sam Parr: What what’s the story of that?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: It was hard work. I mean, you know, I mean, the thing is, uh, even though And that’s coke, I guess?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Yes, it was cocaine. Yeah. And I think that, uh, like I was saying before, uh, whatever I put myself to, uh, for better and difference, it was it was like I put myself to it, you know, and then it was like only after watching the uh repercussions throughout my community and communities across the country that I realized that you know, what was making me uh rich was also making me poor in spirit and in uh culture, you know, I was helping to destroy my own community. And so, you know, so I don’t really take a lot of joy in talking about the amount of money I made in that business, even though I was engaged and I was I was pretty uh focused in that business when I was young and misguided in that business venture. But uh, I had a lot of time to reflect.
Death Row Records and Dr. Dre [10:55]
Sam Parr: Was there anyone that is uh that I would know of that you started working with like really early on around that time at the was it called the Jingle Factory?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Yeah, the Jingle Factory was makes commercial it was commercial based like that, you know, we did commercials in the city. So basically that I did my own did my own jingles for my own uh limousine service as well. So, no, that was a non-celebrity. That was just commercial. But at the same time, I started working with uh, you know, Motown. I started working with at the time Motown was uh uh pretty hot in the city. So I was working with Motown behind the scenes a lot.
Sam Parr: And then how did that kind of go into the production companies?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Well, I I created a production called Why Not Production. And I just felt like during that time, um, it was hard for people that look like me to uh to really uh to really uh get a stronghold in the city. So I decided to create my own production company. So and I would, you know, be available to help produce artists that didn’t have the financial wealth or thought to be able to do it themselves. And somebody brought me a a play opportunity and I I never I never was involved in plays until that moment and I just thought it was just a a real creative space uh for people who were, you know, in the movie business but didn’t have work at the time but could hone in on their craft and also provide entertainment in the community. And a lot of people may not have been used to uh experiencing the plays and so that gave me an opportunity to bring that kind of entertainment uh to my community. So it was very exciting. I got to meet some some pretty heavy hitters. Uh I met I met Denzel uh during that opportunity. I met uh Paul Winfield, I met Vanessa Williams, I met uh Richard Lawson, I met uh uh Ruby Dee, uh I mean, Al Freeman, I mean, I could just go down a list. Uh, there was a number of people who uh worked with me on this uh production. I worked with a guy named Woody King, who’s out of New York, who was the director, and Ron Milner was the happened to be the uh the author of this particular play called Checkmate. And I was able to take it to various cities and uh ultimately got it to Broadway with the Nidelanders on 46th and Broadway and my life came crashing down right before we actually launched on Broadway. We was on Broadway, but I didn’t get to market and promote it the way I normally do. I like to market and promote the projects that I’m involved with.
The Sentencing [12:46]
Sam Parr: And you got, what was your sentence? 33 years? And that was mostly the attempted murder or the the uh?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: No, that’s that’s there was not my sentence. I had a 25 to life and then on top of that, I had a 20-year sentence for the federal uh with the Feds.
Sam Parr: Damn. What’s that feel like hearing that?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: It’s unbelievable. But but it’s real. I mean, like the the uh the the criminal system is real. I mean, it’s it’s like a lot of people, I think conversations like the one we have and should be had more. I think people just see the glitz and glamour of a particular lifestyle and and the fact that a lot of us have very little patience because some of us live in conditions that are unbearable. And so you just want to get out, however you got to get out. And so you don’t realize that the patience that that that you need, that you can exercise, that you should exercise, could save you a lifetime of misery. And so it’s, you know, in hindsight, you can see, you know, like in reverse, you know, so I I believe I should be a conduit for that. I believe I should be able to talk to people that are poised to make some of the same uh youthful mistakes that I made, thinking that it’s going to solve the problem when it creates multiple problems. Uh and it affects your family and your community in ways that you can’t even imagine.
Reflections on the Past [14:20]
Sam Parr: When you were, so you started Death Row or you and I want to hear about that while in prison after you went in?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Yes.
Sam Parr: How on earth does that work?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Well, you know, I mean, I’m enterprising. What do you want me to tell you? I mean, what do you want me to say? What do you Well, what’s it What I mean, when you’re just sitting there, you have a visitor, you’re writing letters, you’re doing phone calls and and someone comes to you and be like, “Hey man, I got this idea for this play. I got here’s my vision, yada yada yada. Here’s what I think could be the outcome.” And you’re like, “All right, cool. I’ll put up 100k. I’m half owner and um I’ll help make connections. You’re going to do a lot of the day-to-day work. I’ll oversee and I’ll make some connections.” And or were you more hands-on? Like what’s that look like?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Okay, like when you talk about like when I was telling you about all my investments was uh uh consistent. Like I would like to come into the the the management aspect of it. What that does, though, uh helps me understand the business. Okay, I may have management skills, but I may not have uh an uh uh an insight on that particular business. So part of that that that that relationship, that merging of that relationship, you need to teach me everything you know about what you do. And then I, you know, compile that with my management skills and then we could, you know, move on to the next level. But that was part of what I would do, you know, I would come in and decide if this is something I want to invest in and I would become the managing partner, but also I want to learn everything that everybody here knows so that I could be effective in that position. And so that’s that’s used the role I always took.
The Death Row Legacy [16:00]
Sam Parr: What’s the first song that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.”
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Well, it it’s it’s it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that and they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah.
Sam Parr: How much was a cassette back then?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Yeah, it was about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it?
Michael “Harry-O” Harris: Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that and they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that and they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that and they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that and they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate anything to selling drugs or to Well, well you know, it’s just back of like like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he’s still he’s consistent in his character. You know, his certain roles he won’t play. It’s it’s and and it’s the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project Checkmate in the first place. He was he was just always a consummate uh professional, you know, it’s just he didn’t really hang out, you know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I and and his projection in the films that he do. Uh for people that look like myself, we’re proud, you know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. And and there’s not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong, focused, uh intriguing individual, you know, instead of like you use the word intimidating like towards me earlier, you know, it’s like sometimes that could be off-putting for people uh and it and it kills opportunities because people see the book, remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and uh not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that with the roles that he has played. So it’s my honor and pleasure to to have known him then and to know him now that he’s uh he’s a consummate professional. Even today, he uh he’s always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he when he when he does a a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now, it it it had this uh And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part, I meant I’m part I’m intimidated because you’ve got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, if you ever say something that you don’t want on the pod, just let me know. And you said, “I don’t say things I don’t mean to say.” Like you just you got this Clint Eastwood just like I’m like I just you’ve got this coolness about you that is uh is intimidating is what I meant. And I’m intimidated by your success. Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I’m glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that’s why I don’t worry. I I appreciate you you you saying that to me uh early on, but I’m I’m usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it. You know, That’s what I mean. You’re very intentional and I and that can be intimidating to people. Cuz when I get nervous, when there if there’s silence or I’m nervous, I’ll say shit that I don’t even mean to say, you know what I mean? Yeah, and you don’t you don’t seem to have that attribute. Well, I’ve been in some pretty sticky situations and you got to say what you mean and mean what you say. It can it can turn out real ugly, you know, if you you know, if you uh don’t understand your surroundings and uh you know, you got to speak to your audience, you know, whatever that audience may be in in real life, I mean in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting, you know, like you never know who could uh benefit from our conversation today. Uh and I hesitate on some of the about to do and say, “Hey, you know what? That’s some wisdom there. Let me let me connect to that. Uh here’s a person that done been through it and and experienced it on different levels. And uh he might have something to say, you know, so thinking about I’m thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know, so you talking about your success. I’m trying I’m being your rearview mirror for a second. Then I’ll be I have a feeling you’re going to only be in the rearview mirror for a second. Uh but what were you saying about and I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You’re talking about some other artists. Right. Okay, I was saying they were they were different in in a way that they provided an opportunity uh for us to speak. Now, some people don’t like what we said, but it was different, you know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, black Americans and and not just black Americans, Hispanics, and you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, you know, a box. And so you don’t really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip hop, called rap, called uh some people call it the gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in our community, being able to speak to it. You know what I’m saying? Like becoming your own CNN or or Fox News, you know, you can say this is what’s happening, good, bad or indifference, but this is what’s happening in our community and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so and then you get involved uh in uh then it becomes a business and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know, so you people were getting to mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that in that aspect, the the uh rappers, uh the the music business was able to oh share shed a light on those communities in a way that it hasn’t been shed it. And especially when it came to police brutality and you know, a lot of the uh injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn’t even have access at uh doing. So What’s the first song that you heard that you heard that you thought, “Oh, Death Row, this I’m onto something.” Well, it it’s it it’s it’s like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out. So it wasn’t I mean, I I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic before it came out. And so, but the first when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison and a lot of guys was, uh, they they weren’t really paying attention to them. Really? Until that happened. Yeah, because it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, you know, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know, and then we had other local uh artists like Tati and Miss Max the Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, 187 on the undercover cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those uh thump thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. It was game over, you know, and that was like, wow, you know, because uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that. And they they didn’t want to hear it. Then once they I got a line around the corner, they want to hear the tape now. And then it’s been like that ever since, you know, and I watched uh I was able to, you know, watch Dre and and Snoop and them perform at the uh Super Bowl. And uh I was able to, you know, attend the practices and it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago and just to see them become top notch in their game because we took it from an independent uh type of setting with with Rufus and uh NWA and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and and become a major player which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were Was it Was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tape still when it when it first started. Yes, tapes. They they went to CDs. Yeah. How much was a cassette back then? Yeah, that’s about that’s about right math. It’s not being. Damn, man. So I mean, what’s it feel like to be in prison and seeing all that money coming in and you’re not able to enjoy it? Well, it’d been better if I was on the streets. I tell you that. But at the same time, uh, it was good to see uh legal activity taking place to make that kind of money. Uh, I come from a world where some people, not that you had to, but we felt that we had to do what we had to do to get what we had to get. And to be able to see a legitimate venture do so well and and those opportunities become available to me and so many other people. Uh, that’s what I kind of locked into. Like we we can go legit, you know, and and basically figuring out creative ways, uh, they they figured out creative ways to tell stories that uh that could capture the masses. And uh, I just thought that was such a creative. Even now when I when I’m around Snoop or uh uh and I see him do things so effortlessly, like he’s just it’s just like it’s nothing to him, you know, it’s like all these years he could still remember lyrics that he did 30 years ago. I could just composed it seconds ago. And uh, even being around Dr. Dre and being in his home studio and watching him and his team uh, you know, conduct full orchestras. It’s like what happened here, you know, like and they still are coming with music and they’re still working with young people and they’re still open. It’s like it’s no like I hear no, “I’m done.” I hear none of that. It’s just like every day and just to be in those environments and and just, you know, being recognized by those individuals as somebody that had a integral part in what they did. Uh, and and me and Snoop is more than most. Uh, a pretty connected when it come to that. You guys took off right out the gate with Death Row, but it almost seemed like, unfortunately, you kind of went away as fast as you came. I mean, your work stayed forever, but the entity kind of went south after only like a handful of years or, you know, was uh Well, it’s back to management again, you know, it’s Yeah, what would you what would you have done differently managing? And was Sugar was Sugar a good manager? Well, I just say this about Sugar, you know, I think I think Sugar was really creative. And uh and he was in the right place at the right time. And and he was able to connect the right people. And so in the beginning, Sugar to me could have been one of our biggest entrepreneurs, had he not uh imploded, you know, I mean, I know him, you know, I mean, I used to sit with him and I used to talk with him. So I know the side of Sugar that most people don’t know. And and we considered ourselves brothers at one time, you know, it was a close bond and to see him unravel and and to uh pull away from these opportunities that was surrounding him. It’s just a tragedy, you know, because I know a different Sugar and and so, but yeah, it went away for a little while, but it’s back. Right. It’s back and it’s strong and uh people are looking at it different. And so I have nothing negative to say about anybody because I just think that’s wasted energy. I just think we all did what we did. Uh and sometimes uh you know, I could be wrong about certain things and the next person could be wrong about certain things. It’s just how you know, it’s it’s how you deal with the present, you know, and and how it and and and can Death Row be seen differently with the new generation. And so we’re about to see. At my at my last I started my last company when I was about 25 years old and we grew, we had dozens of employees and the average age at one point was like 23, 24, 25. And I was the adult in the room. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I don’t do any drugs. I’m completely sober, but a lot of my people would. And it was a creative business. And whenever they would start drinking and stuff, I would always have to put someone in charge and I’d be like, “Hey, I got to get out of here. I don’t want to be around this.” Um, and like managing young people, particularly in a party environment and particularly creatives, that’s a challenge. You have to like give them the lanes to stay within and let them be free within those lanes. And and from an outside perspective, you dealt with that times 10, you know, they weren’t just drinking and um, you know, making bad decisions at the bar, some, you know, Snoop got um, he was uh in trouble for um, there was some some some more stuff that was happening and all those guys had issues. What’s that like managing creative wild wild guys? Well, you know, it’s called putting out the fires. But you know, it and as you spoke about Snoop, he was exonerated from that case too. So, you know, Yeah, and I’m not saying he did anything. I’m just saying that’s hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be uh in a circle of of getting in trouble, regardless if they did it or not. What Well, in that in that particular in music or any creative, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know, and so what happens is if you take away if you take away something, it takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from in the condition that the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I’m not justifying behavior of any kind. I’m just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you’re talking about about some of the conduct that different individuals uh participated in early on and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They they they have charities, they have foundations, they have they they they change, they help and motivated and mentor other people in their careers. So, yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that. And that’s what made it exciting and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew and some people learned and some people didn’t. And some people went up and some people went down and it’s just it’s you know, you talk about a Shakespearean play. I mean, you there is no other, you know, it’s just you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers and and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it’s just a combination of it all, you know, so the story is still being told. Do you think that that creating Death Row was is that the the thing you’re most proud of career-wise? Well, my career is not over, sir. And so I So far. So far. I just think that it’s the most impactful. Uh good, bad, like I said, good, bad. It’s you can go somewhere and you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And uh and and I and you’ll be surprised people from high up in different uh parts of this society, class of society has told me that when they were in college or you know, whatever they were doing, that that music Dude, I listen to it all. I know every word to California Love to hit them up. I mean, I know all these words. I I grew up in Missouri as a you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don’t relate. I mean, I don’t experience what they experience, but like there was a rebellious side of me where I go, I want to stick it to the man. I want to and I I like what I loved about Pac in particular, he’s one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What how old was I think he died in September of what, 96? Yeah. Um, he he he was he was 25. He was a young guy and he had he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he’s 18, 19, when he’s talking about uh I think Jada Smith or um and talking about like you see the love that he has for this woman and he’s being artful and he’s talking about um like Brenda had a baby. These songs are like real issues, but then he also got he got charged with rape and he also was, you know, the whole hit him up thing and with with all these other guys, he was fighting and what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good and he redeemed himself, like he would screw up and then he he was a he was a rich character and I was drawn to that. I’m like, I got flaws, you know, I had substance abuse issues and I overcame them and I did all this stuff and I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it. And that’s why I was drawn to it, even though I can’t relate