Sam digs into how much bestselling authors actually make from book sales, using Mark Manson, Atomic Habits, and a friend who sold 30,000 copies as case studies. The conversation reveals that traditional publishing economics are often terrible for authors — advances are rarely earned back in royalties — while self-publishing and ancillary revenue (speaking, courses, consulting) are where the real money is.
Speakers: Sam Parr (host), Shaan Puri (host)
Mark Manson, $14M Condos, and a Curiosity About Book Money [00:00:00]
Sam: All right, so I got curious about something. There’s this guy named Mark Manson — Mark Manson has this book called The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*** — and he created a couple of spin-offs from it. I’ll tell you a funny story. This book was the best-selling book of 2019 or 2020 — I forget the exact year — and it sold many, many millions of copies.
I actually had dinner at a conference with Tucker, who we were just talking about, and Mark Manson sat next to me. I was talking to him and I said, “So what do your parents think about your job?” And he goes, “Well, they kind of make fun of me and ask when I’m going to get a real job. They don’t really know what I do — they just think I play on the computer all day and play video games. They don’t truly understand what I’m doing. But they kind of understood it this year when the New York Times released a report saying I sold more books than Hillary Clinton.” That’s when they kind of understood what he does.
So anyway, I got curious about Mark, and I Googled him. The first article that came up said he had a condo in New York City that he recently sold for $14 million. And that made me curious, because I thought — books can’t make that much money, can they?
The Real Economics of a 30,000-Copy Book Deal [00:02:30]
Sam: Atomic Habits has sold around five million books total, and it was the best-selling book on Amazon in 2021. I got curious about how much authors actually make.
I have a friend — I can’t say his name — but he sold 30,000 copies of a book that was published by a major publisher. I want to explain to you how much money he made. And by the way, 30,000 copies is a ton — that’s like the top one percentile. This book is in bookstores, probably in airports, things like that.
He was given a $250,000 advance — basically, “here’s $250K, go write the book.” Off those 30,000 copies sold, he has not made a single cent in royalties or licensing fees. He told me that when he looked at the contract, he doesn’t even fully understand when he’s going to get paid past that amount. He only gets paid pennies on the dollar for every $14 book sold.
He said, “I get paid once the book surpasses what they spent to produce it — but I can’t even figure out from the paperwork how much they spent, including everyone’s salaries for publishing and all of that.”
But he told me he made an additional $400,000 that year selling courses, coaching, and consulting — which wouldn’t have happened without the book. So on 30,000 copies sold, he has made nothing beyond the $250K advance. He also said his editor wasn’t that great and he had to spend his own money to hire a separate editor, and their marketing people weren’t that good either.
Self-Publishing, Dan Bilzerian, and the Better Math [00:05:30]
Sam: I looked up Dan Bilzerian — you know who he is, the Instagram guy. He self-published his book. It costs $35 and he sells it through his own Shopify store. You can’t buy it on Amazon. That works for Dan because he just posts a link on Instagram and it goes viral. David Goggins did something similar.
This whole publishing thing got me interested, because most people just don’t make money directly off their books. I guess Mark Manson must have crushed it somehow. But for someone selling 30,000 copies, you don’t make anything.
I think it comes down to two things. If you take an advance and it’s your first book, the economics can be super skewed against you. But if you have multiple hits — like a Ryan Holiday — by the time you negotiate your third book deal you’re going to have much better economics. Tim Ferriss probably made more off his last book than he did off his first, which was the bestseller.
And then self-publishing is changing the game. Say a book sells for $13.99 — call it $14. You’re probably looking at $7 or $8 just in cost of the book plus shipping to get it to the customer. So you’re left with $4 or $5 to play with. Whether that goes in your pocket or your publisher’s pocket depends on how you negotiated. But even at $4 per copy, five million copies sold for Atomic Habits — that’s $20 to $30 million in gross profit off the books alone.
Shaan: Wait, five million books times $14 is $70 million in revenue. I would bet the revenue is somewhere in the $50 to $100 million range.
Sam: Yeah, that’s the ballpark. But I don’t know what his exact deal was — whether he’s self-published or what.
Speaking Fees and the Real Book Payoff [00:08:00]
Shaan: What a guy like him could make on speaking fees though — I bet he commands many thousands of dollars an hour just to show up. I’d bet it costs $50,000 just to have him come to a boardroom in New York and give a talk.
Sam: I just got paid $8,000 to do a one-hour Zoom call — to give a talk. So that means the author of Atomic Habits is definitely commanding $25K to $50K per talk.
Shaan: That’s crazy.
Sam: That’s crazy. So anyway, I thought this was interesting and it shocked me. Writing a book — you’re going through this right now —
Shaan: I know, I know. You’re thinking about going through it.
Sam: I basically paid to write the book, and now I’ve got to actually write it this year. So that’ll happen. I don’t think I would predict you make money directly off of it, but I imagine there will be money made in some ways.
Shaan: Yeah. A book is a pretty horrible way to make money, so I’m just doing it for fun.