This episode of My First Million features hosts Sam Parr and Shaan Puri discussing their podcast’s growth, strategies for scaling content, and the importance of “picking and shoveling” in business. They also dive into the success of Coinbase, the potential of “micro-acquire” platforms, and the value of building businesses that solve specific, tangible problems.
Topics: Podcast growth, business strategy, Coinbase, micro-acquire, entrepreneurship, content creation, business metrics, startup advice.
Podcast Growth and Strategy [00:00]
Sam Parr: I used to chase money a lot, like, how do I make money? Maybe this will make us money, maybe this will make some money. And that was good because I like learned skills about how to make money, but the things that actually paid off, none of those really paid off with a big dollar amount.
Shaan Puri: I feel like I can rule the world. I know I can be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off. On the road, let’s travel, never looking back.
Sam Parr: All right, before we actually get into the content, um, a few things. We’ve been making a ton of changes to this podcast. The numbers are working. I think the last month was our highest ever, right, Abreu?
Abreu: I believe so, yeah.
Sam Parr: So, I think we should start saying the numbers. I think we should start saying the numbers. I think we should just say what it is, say what we’re going to do, and say what happens, whether it works or it doesn’t.
Abreu: Yeah, so the trailing 30 days was, I think, 350,000 listens. Um, which if it’s not the highest ever, it’s one of, like, top one or two. But the trajectory is, is really what matters, and that is great. So we’re getting around an average episode, I think, is 20,000 downloads an episode, which is, I think, a 60% increase from the year before. Is that right, Abreu? Am I, am I getting all these? 22 to 23,000.
Abreu: Right.
Sam Parr: So, 20, so let’s say we’re at 22,000. Uh, it used to be 15. Of course, it used to be zero, so, you know, whatever, it’s growing. And our goal is 100,000 per episode. One Rose Bowl Stadium per episode is what I want to be doing, something like that. And, uh, so we’re not far. 4x is, you know, it’s not far. I think naturally that would happen in a couple years, and what we’re going to do is just accelerate it so it happens in one.
Shaan Puri: Yeah, I feel quite confident that if we do the same thing but more, it would happen with time, but I don’t want to do that. I’m impatient. I want it to happen immediately. So, uh, the changes we’ve made is we prepared more for every podcast, which I think is very clearly working. Yes. We now have these videos going, um, which I also think is clearly working, and that it makes me feel good. Is it driving downloads? I don’t actually, I’m not convinced, but it’s worth it, I think.
Sam Parr: Well, you know what it does do is there’s a whole group of people that, like, either A, just don’t listen to podcasts, or don’t listen much, so they’re like kind of like, otherwise they would only hop in once in a while, they didn’t build a habit with us, and they follow just through the clips. So there’s actually just like another audience that’s like, “Oh, good. I watch those clips every time because they’re good.” And I always get messages about them.
Shaan Puri: I am, yeah, and I’m in that category as well. I’ve never, I don’t think I’ve ever listened to a Joe Rogan podcast, but I watch a lot of clips. Right. Um, and, uh, we’re putting our clips on YouTube, which is not working. That is not working well at all for us. Right. Um, maybe the, we’re putting the full episodes on, and a handful have 20 to 30,000 views, maybe even more. A couple of them have a few more. That’s working, but the clips are not working. And then we’re doing email blasts in the hustle. I think that started two weeks ago. That is working.
Sam Parr: Well, we should, we should rewind. We should basically say, we had a meeting which was like, uh, I don’t know, a week ago, maybe, something like that. And it was like, “Oh, okay, we got all these ideas.” Basically, I had thrown a few ideas, you had a few ideas, Abreu had a few ideas, my buddy Ben had a few ideas. We were like, “Oh, yeah, great. All these sound good. So like, who’s going to do them?” And then we kind of had this like come-to-Jesus moment where it was like, “Look, in Sam we trust.” Like, if, and we can’t, we can’t outsource this to somebody else who doesn’t really, I don’t want to say doesn’t care, but like, it’s a different thing when it’s your baby, it’s your show. You are getting the like, the more people who listen to this, the cooler opportunities we get, the the better DMs we get every morning. And so like, clearly it matters more to us than it would be for, even if it was somebody’s full-time job. And, uh, the second thing is like, your skill level is super high, right? Like, we saw you grow the hustle, I saw you grow the hustle. A lot of people who were subscribers saw you grow the hustle, saw you grow trends from scratch, and saw you sell the thing. And it’s like, so I got excited because I was like, “I’m going to get to see Sam in action,” even closer than I did with the hustle, where like, you would send a monthly update. Now, I’m seeing how you actually operate, and it’s pretty dope. And I actually think the listeners will like to see how you operate, how you approach growing a thing. And, uh, that I think that’ll be exciting.
Shaan Puri: That’s a lot of pressure. Thank you for the compliments. That’s a lot of pressure. I I will say, I think growing the podcast has been, I mean, that’s actually one of the harder things I’ve done. Yeah. But, uh, HubSpot owns us now. It’s not my money, like it’s their money, and and and so we’re in a totally, I mean, we’re, I our owner, you know, the company, this company now does a billion a year in revenue. There’s like a billion plus in cash in the bank account, like, so we can actually, so we’re going to have a lot more resources. I actually am not convinced that that’s actually going to help us grow, though.
Sam Parr: Yeah, I don’t think resources help you grow, but I think, I would say like, that wasn’t the problem before. Uh, it can be helpful, but that wasn’t necessarily the problem. Uh, and then, so what we’re doing now is, uh, we don’t have ads in the email anymore. So in the hustle, we do zero advertisements, and the podcast is going in every day now. Um, or not every day, but a lot. And then also, what we are launching at HubSpot and the Hustle is we’re creating this thing, well, I actually don’t know if I can say too much about it, but there’s going to be a lot more podcasts, and amongst those podcasts, we can promote one another, and that’s what you’re going to hear. So whoever is in our our podcast crew, we’re going to promote them, them us, yada, yada, yada. And I actually think that’s going to help a ton. I think that, um, I actually don’t think I could talk any, I don’t actually It’s pretty dope who’s in that, but we’ll we’ll say it later when we can. So, okay, can I give the audience the five ideas that we had brainstormed that were like, “Oh, okay.” Once, thing one was like, “Let’s put Sam in charge of it because Sam knows how to grow shit.” That was step one. Step two, okay, so what are the like, how would you grow a podcast if you’re going to grow a podcast? So, we said, I’m going to just rattle off the ideas. Number one, big-name guests that actually have an overlapping audience. So people like Chamath, people like Tim Ferriss, uh, not just like a famous person who, like for example, we had Jake Paul on, uh, super famous, but his audience and our audience not going to have a huge amount of overlap where it’s not necessarily that his fans would would connect with us and become long, you know, ongoing subscribers. Um, okay, the other one was paid. Can you advertise to grow a podcast, right? Like, running some experiments on, take a few thousand bucks, run it on a paid campaign and see, can you grow through through paid? I think we’ll find out if that’s interesting.
Shaan Puri: Which we’re doing. So we bought ads in, uh, Player FM, Abreu, is that what we did?
Abreu: Yep. Yep.
Shaan Puri: And then, um, we’re buying ads in a few more, I have a few more that we’re buying ads. Did that work, uh, Abreu, Player FM?
Abreu: It’s hard to tell because they claim a lot of their views come from desktop listeners, um, which doesn’t necessarily get measured according to them. Um, so it’s Okay, well, that’s like saying, like, “Thank you.” Yeah, yeah. It’s like saying like, “No, look, the, it’s like, this is like selling like CBD treats for dogs. Like, does it work? I don’t know.”
Sam Parr: Right. Can’t ask your dog. Yeah, like, it’s like the greatest business ever. It’s like selling vitamin B for your puppy. Uh, yeah, exactly. So, I would say, if it’s hard to tell, it didn’t work. It’s a very obvious way to think about it. Um, okay, another one, go on other people’s podcasts. So, do a, do a tour going on other people’s pods. They already have an audience. Those people listen and they say, “Oh man, what a great guy. I’d love to listen to more of this person. They were interesting.” Boom, get some people from there. Clips. Uh, people have seen we tripled down on clips. We found awesome clip makers. We’re making a fuck ton of clips, and we’re going to post the shit out of them. So I think that’s a good, good strategy. Um, there’s the, and then the last one that I thought was kind of an interesting one was like, get sharper on the branding. So if you want to grow a product, the sharper the hook of what is the product, the, uh, the better chance you have to grow, because it’ll be more clear, it’ll, um, resonate with more people. And so being able to describe it well, as well as, uh, just being like on-brand all the time about like what this is and what you get out of it if you listen to it. I think that’s what an area that, honestly, we’re kind of shitty at, which is ironic because I think we’re pretty good at it with our startups, but we’re pretty bad at it with the podcast. Like, the name doesn’t really make much sense. Um, the description, I don’t know. We don’t have like, we don’t do an intro when you join to like be like, “Oh, this is the podcast where XYZ happens.” We don’t have like a a highlight reel of like, you know, “Start here. If you’re if you’re new to the pod, like go here. This is the onboarding episode,” you know?
Shaan Puri: Well, basically, in a sense, it kind of succeeds a little bit in spite of itself. Right. Um, and and a lot of people say the name doesn’t really matter, or sorry, the name doesn’t reflect it. And I’m in my opinion towards just names is it doesn’t your name really like, it rarely will it hurt you. In some occasions, it actually could help you. I think Coinbase is like the perfect name ever. Right. But, uh, even if if Coinbase was called like, uh, uh, Blue Sky, uh, sunglasses, I’m just looking, I’m just making shit up that I’m looking at. Um, it would work. Blue Sky. Uh, like it will work. It it would have worked. Uh, Okay, so, uh, should we move on to Coinbase, actually? Let’s move on to Coinbase. So, Coinbase went public today, and it’s everything about it is astounding. Right. Um, so Where do you want to start? I can read off some of the kind of the numbers of like just how big is that business, and then we can talk about the returns of this of the of the investment. So, how big is the business? So, Coinbase came out, they’re public now, so now they released their numbers. Their Q1 numbers came out. 56 million users, um, 6 million monthly active users, which is, I think more than E-Trade had, uh, you know, like total. I think E-Trade had like 3 million, uh, like trade trader accounts or whatever. And so the this is kind of amazing to me that there was more people on Coinbase. Um, Coinbase makes up 11% of the crypto asset market in terms of how many assets are stored on crypto crypto uh on Coinbase. 335 billion in trading volume. Okay, here’s the interesting bits. Uh, 1.8 billion in revenue for the quarter. Um, For the quarter? For the quarter. So, round up to two, so about 8 billion-ish in revenue if annualized. That’s right. Um, 800 in net income off that off that 1.8 billion in revenue. So like 2.4 billion dollars annualized in profit. Right. And, uh, and then yeah, so basically, Coinbase goes it lists publicly today. It wasn’t a it wasn’t an IPO, it was a direct listing where you basically, you know, IPO is you create some shares, uh, you you issue new shares to to buyers. A direct listing is you don’t issue new shares. It’s just people who have shares can get, you know, like basically sell some of their their shares. So, uh, they they listed, they had about 114 million shares for sale, and uh, it’s up about 40% on day one. So the the implied market cap as of right now is about $110 billion. So what I wanted to know was, um, there’s this kind of uh phrase in in the startup investing world, which is like, anytime there’s a gold rush, like some new frontier, new space, it can be hard to like pick the winner. It can be hard to like, you know, just grab your shovel, dig and find the gold. And there’s a thousand people looking for gold, and you don’t know where to dig. It might be this one, might be that lot, that that land, you, you know, you don’t know exactly where the gold is. So the foolproof strategy in any gold rush is what they call the picks and shovel shovel strategy, meaning you you sell the shovels to people who are going to go mine the gold. And so Coinbase is kind of a classic picks and shovels thing in the crypto market. So you you could buy Bitcoin, you could buy Ethereum, you could buy one of you could buy Litecoin or Dogecoin or one of the thousand altcoins that exist, and you’re betting, okay, maybe one of these will become like the digital currency. Um, or you could buy Coinbase and exchange that’s going to trade a bulk of, you know, a bulk number of these coins. And so I wanted to know, once Coinbase got up to where it was like $100 billion valuation, I had the question of, what would have been a better investment? Coinbase at its seed round or Bitcoin that same day? If you could should you have bought the currency or should you have invested in the company? And the reason I thought this was interesting is I remember 2013, I was I just kind of heard about crypto from a guy in my office, like our Pete, our our IT guy was like, “Dude, Bitcoin is the shit. It’s at $7 now. It’s at $11.” I was like, “I don’t know what that means.” And he was like, “Yeah, fuck fiat currency.” And I was like, “Fiat?” I think that was a car. I didn’t even know that’s a currency at the time. I didn’t know what that meant. Um, and he’s like, “Mining Bitcoin using our servers at the office.” And he’s like, “Oh, we we mined two Bitcoin today.” And I was like, “Okay, good for you, Pete. Like, what does that do?” You know, I was kind of like, you know, mocking it, but I was curious also. So I started going and listening to some talks. And, uh, and so one of the things I was looking at was like, are are smart VCs, are people smarter than me investing in this space? And what I remember happening was I listened to this talk and it was Andreessen Horowitz, it was Marc Andreessen, uh, who now blocks me on Twitter. Um, he was talking at a thing, he was talking about how crypto is going to be great, how it’s how Bitcoin is going to, you know, is is such a interesting technology, how, um, blockchains might change everything. And then the interviewer was like, “So, how many investments, how much money have you put into this? You’re you’re kind of hyping it up, like, how much money have you invested?” And they’re like, “We haven’t invested in any crypto companies yet.” Uh, and this was like, I think 2012, 20 I think it was 2012. And he goes, “Right now, we’re just owning the currency. We’re just buying Bitcoin.” And I was like, “What? That’s so weird. These guys like they’re they’re a VC fund. They bet on companies. There’s a few companies out there, like I found it to be super strange.” He goes, “Right now, the bet, we don’t know which of these companies is going to emerge as the winner, so we’re just buying the underlying tech the underlying currency. We actually think that’s the right move right now.” And, uh, and later, you know, Andreessen Horowitz has and actually did invest in Coinbase later and, uh, since invested in many projects. And actually, Andreessen Horowitz changed their whole fund structure from a private, you know, VC fund to like some other kind of like financial investment vehicle. They went and got registered with like the SEC or whatever, because they wanted to own crypto assets, and you couldn’t do that out of a traditional fund. They couldn’t you couldn’t buy currencies out of a traditional fund. The the paperwork, the docs don’t let you. And so, um, so anyways, I went back and looked at the numbers. So, Coinbase announced its seed round September 2012. Um, I don’t know, they probably raised it a little bit before that, and then they announced it. They raised $600,000 from investors, including a crowdfunding campaign, which I which I found interesting because I, uh, You don’t like them. I shit on crowdfunding all the time as like, it’s always the bottom of the barrel, but this was through FundersClub. FundersClub had put in like $285,000 through its crowdfunding into that that round. And so, anyways, What is is FundersClub is just a startup? Like, it’s a startup as well. FundersClub itself was a is a YC startup, and then Coinbase was a YC startup, and so FundersClub took a took a share, uh, or like did a did a crowdfunding campaign for for that. Uh, if I read this correctly, I I could be wrong in this part. But anyways, I went and asked one of the the seed investors, so somebody who uh uh a friend uh who invested in the seed round of Coinbase, I said, “What was the valuation back then?” He said it was 15 cents a share. So 15 cents a share there, and he said the A round was only 20 cents a share, so it wasn’t even that much more. Um, uh something like that. So so 15 cents a share, and um, now it trade it’s trading right now, like right before this podcast, at $330 a share or whatever. And so you got this, uh, you know, 2,000x markup, I think 2,200x markup. And, um, so you invested $100,000 in the in the seed round of Coinbase, that’s worth $220 million on this day today, because it goes it goes public. Now, if you had invested in Bitcoin same time, Bitcoin at at in that same month was trading at $12 a coin. Now it’s at $62,000 a coin. So your same 100k instead, you know, would have been worth $500 million. So still, Bitcoin was the better investment, even though this was like a, you know, you invested in a startup that’s became a $110 billion company, still Bitcoin outperformed, but uh it’s closer than I would have thought because Coinbase has really gone up in value in the last two years.
Shaan Puri: So, let’s give some more numbers. Um, I think right before we started, the valuation was 80 billion, but a few hours ago it was 100 billion. We’re going to use 100 billion because that math is a little easier. Um, Brian Armstrong is the CEO. He’s 38 years old. He owns, I think, 20% of the company, uh, which means uh at 100 billion, his net worth is $20 billion, which puts him, I think, like in the top 50 richest people in the world at 38. Uh, the company, Coinbase, I let’s see, it started when? 12, so it’s uh nine years old. Uh, so basically became the from zero to richest uh top 50 richest people in the world in only uh 10-ish years, nine years. And also, he owns 20% of Coinbase. Who knows, I don’t know. I certainly don’t know, but you have to ask, how much Bitcoin does this own does this person own? If you told me that it was another 20 billion, I don’t think I would be surprised at all. Do you, would you be surprised if he owned I’d be surprised. 20 billion is a lot. That that is that is a that is a very, very large amount. So, I don’t think it would be quite so high, but I wouldn’t be surprised if if it was over a billion dollars. I I think 20 billion would be 20 billion would be like he’d be one of the the top three, I think Bitcoin whales, I think at 20 billion or something like that, you know. Okay, okay. Well, let’s let’s let’s would you think I I I I I don’t I didn’t do the math ahead of time, but would you think he would be a top 50 Bitcoin holder? That seems reasonable, right?
Sam Parr: It’s plausible. Yeah. So so I don’t know. We you know, he I don’t think he’s ever said or disclosed, you know, if he if he was buying the underlying coins. Though, so the biggest thing is, did you hold, right? Because Bitcoin on this run-up, right? So from when, you know, if if he’s doing Coinbase, Bitcoin’s at $10 a coin, right? That becomes your kind of like frame of reference. Bitcoin today is trading at $63,000. $63,000 from 12 is such a like mind-boggling like change. And so when I was talking to the the my friend who was an investor in Coinbase, I said, I was like, “Wow, did that did that mean does that mean that Coinbase outperformed Bitcoin?” He goes, “No, I think Bitcoin still wins.” He goes, “But name one person who held all their Bitcoin from 2012 to 2021.” He’s like, “Me.” I was like, “Well, I guess like, of people who owned a lot of it at that time, right?” No, I didn’t I didn’t own a lot. I owned I bought hundreds of dollars worth, but no, not a lot. So let’s say you owned a lot, you know, as that nest egg becomes 10 million, 20 million, 100 million dollars, you’re going to like a lot of people would would liquidate some of it. And so he was saying, you know, all of us at Coinbase, we really couldn’t sell this whole way. And he goes, the illiquidity was a feature, not a bug. Like, it the fact that we couldn’t sell this whole time for Coinbase was the best money-making strategy for us to like not be able to be liquid until now.
Shaan Puri: I didn’t sell, but my numbers were like tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars. It certainly was not a million or tens of millions. But, uh, I I didn’t sell because I actually forgot my password. And I was like, “Ah, I just don’t want to log in. It’s too hard.” And so I didn’t log in. Have you still, have you have it now or no? Yeah, I have it now. Like I had I had uh I just never did like a forgot your password thing in my email because I was like, “Ah, too much work. Maybe it’s a sign. I’m just not going to sell.” Right. Um, and so I didn’t sell. But can what do you have in front of you? Are you looking at something?
Sam Parr: I’m looking at this tweet you put in of Daniel Gross. Yeah, so I want to bring I want to bring this up. So, um, the numbers here is fascinating, but I actually don’t think that’s the really fascinating part. What’s the fascinating part is the psychology behind this because today it’s Coinbase, in 20 years it’s going to be something else. Uh, 50 years ago, it was real estate or something. 100 years ago, it was oil. There’s always something. Yeah. And the psychology behind the human being, I think is far more interesting because that will And by the way, he was an engineer at Airbnb before he left to go start Coinbase. His Airbnb shares from you know, would have done amazingly as well, right? Like Well, he only worked at Airbnb, I think, for a year, and before that, he worked at Deloitte. So I’m almost positive, granted he was probably a genius, probably like, you know, crazy high IQ, but like normal guy, uh, normal like a a normal 9-to-5. Um, and also, uh, so let’s talk about the let’s talk about the personality part here that I love. Um, I like knowing what drives people, what makes them tick. We talk about billionaire of the week, and it’s not actually about necessarily the money, but what what what’s what do people think who achieve greatness? Right. In this case, it’s money, but reality greatness can be a variety of things. Um, so Daniel Gross is a guy we have in this podcast. He went, uh, so Hacker News, if you guys don’t know what Hacker News is, you should read it every single day. It’s basically a Reddit, but only for nerds. I love it. I read it every day. It’s uh tech folks. Um, and anyway, um, Brian Armstrong has a handle on Tech News or on Hacker News, and you could read his old posts. And he has this old and Daniel Gross uh tweeted out some of this guy’s old posts. His handle, um is uh I actually don’t know what his handle is, but well, it’s sorry, it’s B Armstrong. And so B Armstrong actually had a blog. Listen to his blog, and this is actually kind of funny. It’s called startbreakingfree.com, which is which is kind of on on brand consistently. And actually, if you go to startbreakingfree.com, it’s controlled by a virus. So it like they it automatically wants you to install a It’s controlled by a virus. Are you know what I mean? Like go are you like it’s like a Like if I go to it right now, it’s going to try to install like, you know, security software that actually is going to steal all my money. Yeah, it’s going to steal all my Bitcoin. Yeah, it’s going to well, it’s going to say like, “You won, you know, you’re the lucky winner.” Uh, like somehow he let the domain expire or something like that and uh someone got a hold of it. So now it’s just a scam, which is kind of funny. Uh, that the guy who’s supposed to be like Mr. Security, his web his domain expired and uh yada, whatever. But anyway, you can see his post history, and he was launching a lot of stuff. He launched this one thing, and it says, “Hey Hacker News, I just built a new forum software.” “Hey Hacker News, I just built a new photo-sharing website.” So the guy was really prolific, and it’s really interesting to see his posts.
Sam Parr: Yeah, he was definitely like trying, uh, like what Daniel tweeted out was, “I, you know, I look back at Brian’s Hacker News submissions before he started Coinbase. You can see, what you see is a story of a hacker working on different projects, slowly zeroing in on his launch coordinates.” Uh, right? Because he’s he’s consistently shipping stuff. They’re not all like, you know, some of them have like one upvote, seven upvotes, 32 comments, right? Like, they’re not like taking off. So you see a guy taking a bunch of swings, and as his swings, you can see it was, you know, like something about maps, something about could, you know, how would you start your own country, something about like, could you build an entire web app in one language? And then it’s like, “Bitcoin Android release.” Um, you know, like how Airbnb does X, and then it’s about, you know, like how to build your own forum, uh, Bitcoin iPhone app. And you know, he just like sort of finding finding like the thing that is his thing. And this is this is true for everybody, right? Like, you know, people joke about Sam’s uh, you know, Sam’s foot-long weiners or whatever, your hot dog stand. Yeah. Uh, you know, my sushi restaurant. It’s like, if you dig back into people’s first projects, um, you’re always going to find interesting things. Like Mark Zuckerberg, first project that uh I’ve heard him talk about. Have you heard this, the dentist office thing?
Shaan Puri: No, what’s that?
Sam Parr: He set up an internal like just net internet network for his dad’s dental office. So it was like a messaging, like the secretary in the front desk could message him in his office, uh, you know, in the back. So he just like kind of set up the internet inside their office and let them message each other. Then he built Wirehog, you know, it Well, Wirehog, I think was really successful by the way. Well, over like a 17-year-old kid. For yeah, exactly. For a 17-year-old kid, it was it was more successful. And there’s chat transcripts of when he after he like leaves to go work on Facebook, he moves, you know, in the social network, they’re like they they move to Palo Alto. It’s like, this is it. Facebook’s going to be the thing. There’s chat transcripts of him talking at that time like, “You know, Facebook’s cool, but like, but like, yeah, like I think Wirehog’s the thing.” Um, and you know, like so even them, it’s not obvious at that time. And whereas people try to project that these guys are visionaries, they are, you know, visionary geniuses who never had a doubt in their mind, and then they saw the future and then they built it. And it’s like, well, Well, I actually think that a a couple of those things are true. They could be visionary geniuses, or rather, they could be geniuses, but that’s actually not a prerequisite, but it does help. But they definitely had doubt, regardless of how confident someone is. It doesn’t matter if you’re Conor McGregor and you’re going into a fight, you always have doubt, no matter what. Um, and second, um, they probably didn’t have a vision until it started getting a little bit of traction. Right. And I I go back through, there’s these there’s this uh interview on YouTube of Mark uh doing he there’s like some college news station that’s interviewing him, some guy some guy some guy has like a college podcast. And he invites Mark Zuckerberg on because he’s got the college social network that’s kind of like taking off on a handful of colleges. I think they were on like, I don’t know, five or or 10 campuses at the time. And he’s like, “You know, so what what is this going to be? You’re going to go out to more colleges, and then what? Like high schools, and then, you know, non-college students?” And Mark Zuckerberg is sitting there in his like basketball shorts, um, with a red solo cup in his hand, and he’s like, “Uh, I don’t know. Like, I don’t know if it has to do that. Like, why can’t this just be like the cool thing for colleges? Like, once you take it out of the college thing, then you let everybody in, it’s like less cool. Like, maybe this is just cool.” And like, now he’s literally putting fucking satellites into the sky to give people in India the internet so that they can use Facebook. Like, you know, his his aspirations changed. The takeaway here, and I actually just went back to my high school the other day to like give like a talk, and I was like, “You know, doesn’t everything look small when you walk in a high school?” Yeah, and you meet a 16-year-old and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, like I felt I was mature. I felt I knew what I was doing. You’re a child.” Yeah, I could beat you up. Yeah, yeah. I’m like, I was like, “Dude, I’m 30, and I thought that we were more similar, but we’re not.” We’re not at all, yeah. Yeah, we’re not like, why are these chairs so low to the ground? Yeah, everything is so small, and like water fountains are disgusting. I can’t believe I used to drink from them. Anyway, um, I was like, “You guys, just do shit. Take swings, tinker on stuff.” First of all, a lot of stuff that starts out cool, it actually looked really dumb early on, but even if it stays dumb, just get into the habit of taking swings and making stuff because uh like I’m not like Uber successful, but my first shit was like a poison ivy business. It was a hot dog business. Poison ivy business? What is that? My first stuff was like stupid, and like it led to this thing and this thing. And like, hopefully the thing that I’m doing now is actually going to lead to something even bigger. And I also did a ton of research, and I found out that there is this poison ivy treatment called Zanfel, Z A N F E L, I think, Zanfel. And basically, I did more a ton of research, and I found out the guy who started it used to work at a cleaning supplies company, and I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting. What is going on here? Like, that’s kind of weird that I just saw that connection, and I did research, and I found out that basically what he did was he took this thing called, I think it was called Mean Green, and it was really good at washing um oil off mechanics’ hands, and it cost like $5 a gallon. It was dirt cheap. But he found out that uh the way poison ivy works is if you if the leaf gets on you or if the leaf gets on you, it gets this oil on you, and you have to use this oil stuff uh this oil remover to I’ve done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same thing with poison oak or whatever. Yeah, yeah, same thing. And I was like, “Oh, so I’m just going to bulk buy this Mean Green crap and repackage it and sell it for $40 as opposed to I saw that for like $40 for like some like a like a Carmex size or like a, you know, like a like a chapstick size thing when it costs like $40 for like literally an industrial size barrel, and I just repackage it, and I was making thousands of dollars a month, and then I quit doing it because I was like, “I don’t want to do this.” Anyway, it was kind of a cool thing. But I shut it down because I was like, “All right, this is making money, but like, I don’t want to do this. I’m not proud of this. This isn’t like anything I I like to talk to tell people I’m doing. It’s kind of lame, even though it was making like five grand a month.” Shut it down. And um the point is, the thing that we’re doing now, I have a feeling it’s going to lead to something even bigger. And uh and in Coinbase’s regard, everything was much bigger in a much shorter time frame, but uh it doesn’t matter. It’s the the exercise, I think, is still true.
Sam Parr: That’s great. Uh, you know, those guys who came and set up uh my studio here, they just released a vlog on his channel. This guy Henry, I forget his last name, Henry Bladcaster or something like that. I don’t know what it is, but basically, I don’t know how I can find him. Henry, uh on YouTube, he did this thing. He put out a video yesterday being like, “Oh, the advice that I got from Sean Puri.” And I was like, “Okay, well, I’m I’m one of his like, I don’t know, 100 subscribers.” Like, I’ll click this. This is about me, so I will go ahead and watch this video. And his his videos are actually super well-made. He’s like a like very Casey Neistat-ish, like Yeah. It’s like mini Casey Neistat, yeah. Yeah, uh, which just shows how hard it is to win on YouTube. Like his quality is really high, but like no one gives a shit because it’s just YouTube. There’s a billion things on there. Hey, as we said, just give it some time and just keep trying and it might hit. Right. So so the advice, and I was like, I’m curious what the advice was because they came over and they were like doing all the work, and I’m just sort of standing in the garage with like a cup of coffee, just like, you know, just sort of like trying to be nice. I’m I’m not helpful, but I was like trying to talk to them, and I was like, and they’re like, you know, hammering things, and I’m just like asking them questions and giving them some kind of like, “Well, here’s how I would do it if I was you guys.” Because I really resonate with anybody who’s like, if you’re like 22, 23, and then you you’re smart, but you chose not to go the traditional path, and like that feels right, but then you also just get these like hunger pangs of like doubt when it’s like, “Shit, my friends actually have a salary. Wait, like I’m sleeping in a like, you know, four of us are sleeping in this one-bedroom apartment.” And um and so I started like I really like empathize with that because that’s where I was. And uh like I just wanted to tell them what I what I would tell myself, which is like, “Dude, you’re doing the right thing. Here’s how you need to think about this, though. Don’t like don’t worry. Uh you know, here’s how here’s how this is going to play out.” And what I told them was like, “Look, honestly, the best times of my life were three of us living in a, you know, one-bedroom apartment. My my co-founder and my roommate lived in my closet because he couldn’t even afford our dirt-cheap rent. So Trevor lived in my closet and like turned my living closet into like a a room for himself with a lava lamp and shit. And then uh like his girlfriend moved in with them in the closet, too. And you know, and so then uh and I was like, you know, he had a grocery cart because there’s no he didn’t have a closet because he was living in a closet. So he stole a shopping cart, rolled it into his closet and used that as like his hamper, his closet for himself. And I just remember like like at the time, everything seemed so shitty. It was like, “Oh, this is the shitty version of life.” And now I’m like, “No, that was the that was the most fun time because all we were doing every day was just trying to figure shit out, trying new different schemes and projects. We had no responsibilities, no burn, and then we were just like party for fun like on the side.” And so I I just remember think like, now that I look back, I’m like, “That was the shit.” And that’s what I was trying to tell them. I was like, “First of all, guys, this is the best. So like, uh like embrace this part. You’re never going to get to have this again with your friends like you have right now. It’s it’s so fun. Embrace these five years.” I said, “The second thing is, like, I used to chase money a lot, like, how do I make money? Maybe this will make us money, maybe this will make some money.” And that was good because I like learned skills about how to make money, but the things that actually paid off, none of those really paid off with a big dollar amount. The things that paid off were like the people I was meeting and like doing projects with or learning from. Like those relationships pay off big in the end. Um, you know, the the learning of like building skills around like, I did my first e-com project like you, I was selling these wristbands that called fatbands.com, and it was just a fat wristband that I like noticed a bunch of kids were wearing on on campus. I thought, “Oh, wait, maybe that’s a trend. Let me try to sell those online. You can customize them.” And so, um, those skills translated, but the the business did not. And so what I told them, the the advice that he put in the video, um, that I didn’t even realize I said was like, “You’re 23 years old now, like here’s the trick to this whole thing. You’re doing the right thing. Every day you’re just making stuff, you’re trying stuff, you’re making content, you’re having a blast with your buddies. We’re going to measure the scoreboard when you’re 30, not when you’re 24.” And it’s like, that was the game changer like kind of like advice I wish I had and that I gave them.
Shaan Puri: And maybe 35 or 40. Right. Like, but basically, it’s like, don’t like you’re planting seeds. Don’t go dig up that seed the next day and be like, “Shit, this didn’t grow into a plant.” Like, no, plant that seed, water it, enjoy it. And just say, “Look, I’m not trying to win the whole game in one year, uh, in a year and a half.” And like, if my my if my friends who went and took this banking job or consulting job or are doing better than me in in 18 months, like, I don’t need to feel like I made a bad choice. Like, I’m making the right choice for me, and it’s going to pay like, let’s look at this as a 10-year game, and we can only measure the score that like the fourth quarter is 10 years from now. So that’s the only time you can look at the scoreboard, really.
Sam Parr: And the seeds that you’re planting, at least in my experience, and I think in a lot of my friends’ experience, and it also seems like you, for sure, uh is it’s shit, it’s shit, it’s shit, it’s shit, and then suddenly it’s like, “Oh my god, it worked.” Right. It hits. Yeah. Like, so it like it’s shit for the most of the time, and then finally it’s like, “Oh, okay, now it’s all happening.”
Shaan Puri: Your learning goes in this like gradual curve. Like it your learning does go up every year where you’re like, “Oh man, last year I was such a dummy. I didn’t know shit about shit. And now I know better how I would do this.” And then the same thing happens the next year and the next year and the next year. But your results can kind of stay flatlined for like a decade almost, for like seven years before it actually, you know, stops being a flat line and just like curves up rapidly.
Sam Parr: So, I wanted to continue talking about this, but I’m actually going to save my stuff that I have these notes here. I’m going to save that for the next time because I don’t want this episode to be entirely this stuff. Although, frankly, I love this stuff. Abreu, do you like this or not?
Abreu: Yeah, man. I’m just soaking it all in.
Sam Parr: Okay. Um, I like this stuff, but Sean, do you want to move on or do you want to do the other thing? Do you want to do micro-acquire or do you want to keep talking about this?
Shaan Puri: I I don’t want to keep talking about this. I want to do either something micro-acquire or some ideas.
Sam Parr: I want to do micro-acquire, and this is an idea, actually. But, uh, we at the Hustle, we worked with this guy, and I never talked to him because, um, I wasn’t the one working on the project. But anyway, I just started hanging out with him recently. This guy named Andrew, uh, people call him Gaz, but his last name is like Gaznadi or something. Do you know Andrew?
Shaan Puri: Gazdecki or something, yeah.
Sam Parr: Gazdecki. Uh, I think they just call him Gaz. Uh, do you know Andrew? Or do you know who he is?
Shaan Puri: I did the like the mini-SPAC with him. So that’s the only way I know him. Just through DMs. I’ve never talked to him. Uh, never met him.
Sam Parr: Andrew is 32, I think. Um, he previously had a company that I think was an agency, and he told me that he sold it for like tens of millions of dollars. So it was very, very successful. But his new thing is incredibly interesting. It’s called microacquire. I think it’s just microacquire.com. That’s right. And the premise is very simple. Uh, he finds people that want to that wants to sell their their company, and he just talks about it in a newsletter. It’s basically like AppSumo or like the Hustle, but uh a newsletter that just sends out cool companies. Except what he does is he makes you pay money to be access to to get access to it. You only have to pay $200, $300 though, and you get a year’s access. And his numbers are pretty interesting. And keep in mind, Andrew’s actually the only employee. So no one works there. Um, and so as of today, he’s got 1,500 subscribers paying $299 a year, and that brings his revenue to about $400,000 a year. And I posted a chart of this. Do you see the chart I posted?
Shaan Puri: Uh, no. I’m on his Twitter because I was looking for that because I know he posts Oh, here it is. Yeah.
Sam Parr: No, I have the chart. So I posted it. Um, and I’ll He just sent this to me, so I guess, I mean, I said, “Can I share it?” He he builds in public. So he he he announces the revenue publicly. That’s part of his like way of getting more traffic. So he’s at 425 ARR. 425,000.
Shaan Puri: And look at the chart. Yeah, that’s a pretty amazing chart. Um, really all of the growth happened like in November, December, January, February. Like, it just last like four or five months.
Sam Parr: Yeah, and it’s pretty interesting. And I actually shared with you, if you scroll down a little bit more, I shared with you his his vision. But what this guy is building, uh, I mean, this is his vision. We’ll see if he can pull it off, um, is a a different type of AngelList. So basically, he wants to disrupt investment banking, and he wants to make it easier to buy and sell companies. And it’s incredibly fascinating. So he wants to, or sorry, not disrupt AngelList, but kind of be like AngelList. I feel like we should describe what it is. So, what it is, microacquire, you go on there if you want to buy a small SaaS business. So a small business that makes recurring revenue through subscription. And, um, and so that’s the that’s the that’s the thing. I browse And the size are It ranges. So it could you could buy one for $5,000 that’s making $100 a month of revenue or something like that, or $0 revenue, but it has users. So you can buy for as low as like $1,000 or $5,000, you can buy a business. And as high as, there’s a couple for like single-digit millions of dollars on on there. Maybe there’s a few that are outliers, but that’s like, I would say the sweet spot, the range for these things are kind of like hundreds of thousands of dollars is like where the, you know, decent businesses are on this platform. And this is the thing where I talked about this once on the pod, but he had DM’d us and he was like, “Hey, like, love My First Million. You guys are great. Would, you know, would you guys want to do something with me where I like give away a $5,000 micro-SaaS business?” And I was like, “Dude, that’s a great idea. I’ll like go in with you and like I’ll pump this to the audience.” And so basically, I tweeted out like, I didn’t even talk to him. I didn’t actually even respond to his DM. I just tweeted out, “Hey, me and Andrew are giving away a a SaaS business for $5,000, like who wants it?” Oh, you know, all the business is there, we’ll buy it and give it to you. It’s like, these are businesses that are already working to some extent, you know, uh, it’s like we just need to add some hustle. Who’s a hustler who wants this business? And what ended up happening was a bunch of other people started chiming in, being like, “I’m in for 5k. I’ll put 5k in.” And so we ended up raising $100,000 as a micro-SPAC, meaning a blank check company. So we raised $100,000 into an entity to go and use that entity to go buy a business off of micro micro-acquire. And then as of last week, it closed. So we found an entrepreneur, found a business, and we closed that deal, um, to buy a Shopify app.
Shaan Puri: That’s amazing. And that that’s pretty wild. Uh, I’ll be eager to see what happens, and I’m sure you’ll reveal it in like six or 12 months. Um, my opinion around micro-acquire is at worst, it’s going to be okay. Right. At best, it could be amazing. I don’t know what it’s going what’s going to happen to it. What do you think? It’s a really fascinating business, and I the the the thing is now, I’m actually shocked he’s letting me talk about it because I feel like I can clone this so quickly. Uh, yeah, it’s a lot of work. Like, I saw this guy doing the the one deal we did, and it was just like fuck ton of work to just like, you know, shepherd everything to make it happen, do the paperwork, get it the deal to close. Yes, but that’s not the work for micro-acquire. Well, they they have to help you do the transaction. So, so that’s their that’s their function. Um, it’s what’s good is that they don’t make money on the like transaction closing. They make money on you paying a premium subscription. Like, I pay a monthly fee to be able to browse businesses, which is a much better model because you’re not just reliant on taking a brokerage fee of closed M&A, because there’s just not a lot of closed M&A that happens. But there are a lot of people who are curious and will pay the, you know, 100 bucks or whatever it is, 200 bucks to be able to like browse the premium listings and get the get the details, get the info. And so What I would do, if I was Andrew, is I would decrease the price to $99 a year because that not or even $39 a year, because that would make it an impulse buy, and I would get loads of people. Then I would do this company selling. Then I would have a course that costs $2,000 or $5,000, and it would include and include a community and was all focused on buying and selling companies. And I’m pretty I’m pretty confident that you could get that to around 30, 40, $50 million a year in business. I don’t know if that would be a valuable company to um sell, but I’m pretty sure that you could make 10 to $20 million a year in profit for at least a handful of years. I think it’s good. I think it’s needed. So I think it’s smart that he specializes in SaaS. I think that it’s smart that he’s a curated marketplace versus um like Flippa or these different places where you just like so much fucking junk, you don’t know what to There’s no trust. So I think he’s doing it right, that he’s bringing trust to these kind of like lower trust like marketplaces. So I I’m with you. I really like the project, and I’m with you that the minimum is a good outcome. The maximum is like, “Oh wow, this is a big idea hidden in plain sight.” And um I I think it’s interesting. I think it’s more likely going to just be the good outcome, but I like that it has the, you know, the option to do both, and it seems like a fun a fun kind of business to build if you’re this guy. Well, I think he wants it to be the okay outcome, which is he owns it and he lives a really good lifestyle. Right. And uh which by the way, I think like I would probably do the same as well. Yeah. Um so anyway, that’s a cool company I wanted to bring up. What do you got? Uh I got a couple. Okay, so I’ll go for Um we talked about this before, but I’m curious what you think. So, um PhotoP. Uh we talked about this many, many months ago, but you know, we were much smaller than people, those people aren’t probably even listening anymore. So we’ll just pretend it’s the first time. So there’s this thing called PhotoP, and all it is is it’s Photoshop, but it’s free and it’s in the browser. You don’t have to download anything. And the guy who makes it, I don’t know much about him. He posts on Reddit, or you know, he he has posted on Reddit. It’s a pretty big thread. I think you know a little more about him than I do, kind of like the backstory, but it’s a free version of Photoshop that has cloned every feature of Photoshop pretty much. It’s like it’s the exact UI of Photoshop, which is crazy because Photoshop is such a complicated piece of software to build. And this guy just chipped away, just chipped away, just kept chipping away, and basically built PhotoP and P as in uh like the the vegetable like PEA. And so uh photop.com, you go there and it’s just like one banner ad. That’s like how he makes his money, I think. And I think it does a million dollars a year now because so many people use this goddamn thing, like students and like people who don’t want to spend, Photoshop’s really expensive. People who don’t want to buy Photoshop can use PhotoP and get like 80 to 90% of the same power without any of the cost and without any of the headache of downloading a big ass 1 GB application. What uh Oh my god, I’m on it. So we I know this person. Is that what you’re saying? You I I remember the first time we brought it up, you had already heard about it because I was like, “Dude, this I have a really obscure thing,” and then you’re like, “Mr. Obscure.” So you’re like, “Oh, yeah, I’ve seen this on Reddit uh at the time.” And I so I remember being like shocked that you knew about this thing because I thought I had just discovered like an uncovered gem, you know? Yes, I see it. It’s from November 2018. Uh a guy, yes, because it had it got 50,000 upvotes, and he started it by saying, “I made a free alternative to Photoshop. Ask me anything.” And that’s how he got promotion for it. Yeah, I like this. Um, and you think he’s making a million dollars a year doing this? Yeah, so I I don’t I don’t know why but uh Ben told me this. Ben gave me this topic and he was like, “PhotoP, you know, he’s like, you know PhotoP?” I was like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “You know it’s making a million dollars a year.” So, if I’m wrong, Ben’s wrong. I didn’t look it up myself. But um Um, by the way, I got access to SimilarWeb. I’ve got a premium account now, so I can actually Oh, bro, you got the goods. Yeah, I uh someone who works at HubSpot, uh I don’t know if I can blow up their Anyway, I I got SimilarWeb. Dude, I’m the same way where at at Twitch, I was like, “Oh, dude, you got a premium App Annie account? That’s like a couple thousand bucks a year to see app download stuff? Like, share the login.” And they’re like, “You know, we’re like a company. You just buy a seat, and it’s just the company pays for the seat.” But like, if you if you think you would use this, just pay it. I’m like, “Oh, my the like I felt like such a pirate. Like I had to like hide. I was like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Of course, I wouldn’t bootleg that.” Like, Yeah. That’s not what I meant. That that still trying to like be a little bit less hoodrat Sam and more like, “Oh, yeah, it’s like this is ROI positive. Just buy it.” Right, right. Uh It’s actually like a very much looked down upon to be that way. Like, I was negotiating with somebody and they’re like, “Wait, why are you trying to like why are you trying to like save us all this money negotiating with this vendor? Like, just pay the thing and do it upfront.” And I was like, “Oh, but this goes against like everything in my genes. I can’t not do it.” Like, what do you mean? I was like, “Yeah, I booked them a hotel, but it’s in the Motel 6.” Like I saved us $200. I always used to tell people, “Yeah, like I’ll we’ll take care of your accommodation,” and it was they would actually be sleeping in my house. Staying at my aunt’s house. And I would actually go I would stay at my girlfriend’s house and they would get my bedroom. I did that all the time. I’d be like, “Yeah, we’ll take care of your accommodation.” Uh, comes weekend, hustle guy. And they just slept at my house. Uh, so according to SimilarWeb, PhotoP gets 8.5 million uh monthly uniques. They spend a ton of time on the website, and most all the traffic is direct. So, I if you told me they this made a million dollars, I would think, are you sure it’s not a million dollars a month? Uh, I don’t know. I I I got to I got to check. I don’t think it’s a month. I think that would be pretty pretty crazy. I think I think a year because, you know, he’s only he’s not monetizing well, right? He’s just got display ads. So, he’s you know, he’s got the bottom of the barrel monetization, I think, on the on the site. Yeah, you could probably crush this though. Um, speaking of this, well, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say like, you know, okay, to so what? So I think the the so what here is, A, PhotoP is cool and interesting and like just a cool thing to know about. But B, like, couldn’t you do this for more things? Like, first of all, take the whole Adobe suite and do the PhotoP for After Effects, do the PhotoP for Illustrator, PhotoP for for the whole suite, right? Like, anything that has over X million users, um, you could do this for. What else? Like, maybe it’s like AutoCAD. Like, I don’t know if that’s free or if you pay for it or whatever. You know, like, uh I forgot like, uh what’s that thing called? MathLab, MATLAB or something like that. It’s a thing that all the engineers have to use. Um, like is MATLAB paid? Is you know, great. Can you can you do this? And and I think a version of this is uh called OBS. So, have you ever used OBS? No, what’s that? OBS is a open source um piece of software that’s basically the most popular thing for every Twitch streamer or YouTuber. So it’s the easiest way to like stream from a PC, high-quality video and audio to Twitch, to whatever. So for years, Twitch, actually just up until recently, Twitch didn’t have any way, if you went to Twitch, you’re like, “Great, I want to be a streamer.” They’re like, “Cool, go go use OBS.” Like, what the hell is OBS? Twitch doesn’t have a button to saying go live. And uh same thing with YouTube. You go live on YouTube, nope. Can’t just go live on YouTube with uh without like using more sophisticated software. And so uh OBS is actually an open source project maintained by a small community of developers, but really it’s just one guy, Jim. And I met this guy, and Jim’s like, you know, I don’t know, 5’7 and like long hair down to his kind of waist, and he looked like an open source, you know, like app developer, and he’s like extremely high ethics and morals where he’s just like, “The app is 100% free. He’s been working on it for a decade, and it’s supported by donations of people who are like, “Dude, I I run my whole business off OBS, like, sure, here’s $10,” you know? And um and Twitch Twitch actually was paying him every month uh just to keep maintaining OBS because it was like cheaper to just pay Jim a I don’t know, X thousands of dollars a month than to like have 20 engineers try to recreate this thing. I think that that is cool. I think that like when I hear that, I’m like, “That’s badass.” I I love that that that I love that that exists. But what was my what was my thing earlier? I’m like, “Cornrows and sleeve tattoos.” I that I respect it and I think that’s badass. I just don’t want it. It ain’t for me. I’m not wearing it. Uh and that’s the that’s my case with this, which is I’m so happy that that exists. I ain’t doing it because there’s a bunch of examples of this. So another example is SpiceWorks. Spiceworks.com. They were doing like 50, 60, 70 million dollars a year in revenue, and they ended up selling in because they raised too much money and it didn’t work out. But they had traction. And basically what what SpiceWorks did was they created uh software. So if you’re like if you have like um um a thousand employees and you wanted to figure out which computers you you needed to buy, they created software to help you figure that out, which normally costs money, and they actually made money through advertising on the website. In my opinion, that’s like neat, but just charge people money for your thing. Because I like, would you rather be PhotoP or Adobe? Uh, yeah, of course. Of course, of course. I know which one I’d rather be. So I think it’s cool to actually do that free stuff just to get a ton of users, but after a while, like if I was PhotoP, I’d be like, “Well, if I just I should just hire more engineers and we should just make some premium features and upcharge.” And that is what I would do. I would not do this. Well, and there there’s another way of looking at it, which is sometimes, like free doesn’t mean no ambition. So for example, Skype was like, “Hey, free international, you know, like calling.” And uh WhatsApp, same thing. Why did WhatsApp take off? Because SMS was actually really expensive. You had to pay for every text, especially international texting. It was super expensive. So WhatsApp free was the was the growth hack. And for these guys, I would say free is also the growth hack. But, you know, if you’re if you want to just be one person maintaining this thing and like whatever, like you’re where you do it matters. So Photoshop is still at least big, but nowhere near as big as texting and calling was, right? That was like such a huge market. And then the second thing is like, if you’re going to do free, find some other way to capture a ton of value. So, uh Skype and WhatsApp were able to capture a bunch of value using a totally different method, whereas PhotoP is just like, cool, here’s a here’s one banner ad. Um, you know, and that’s enough for me. Or OBS is like, hey, donate to me and that’s enough for me. So, you know, it’s like, it’s not that it’s not a business, it’s just that it’s a different kind of business. And I think that’s the thing that I’m trying to figure out is like, what are the other things that are like that? Like, what are the other things that are like, “Hey, this is a huge market, but it’s currently being served by something that’s really expensive and really complicated, and we can just make a free version of it that’s just as good.” And I think that’s a really interesting business model.